Preliminary Physics Tweaks Posted

[Avatar]

I disagree.

"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it. 

I'm too argue to be drunking like this...

Please, drop the 'tudes, swallow some pride, leave GSH alone and for crying out loud state your PHYSICS opinion in a clear and polite manner HERE, on the beta boards.  That's all that's needed now.  Not more flames or attitudes...

Gonna have to tape Dr Who, I guess....

-Av-

[Red Devil]

Yes, a lot of us have been with BZ1 and BZ2 and even the arcade game before some people discovered BZ and started calling themselves vets.  I think a better term would be "Stratters".

This reminds me of the relationship that race car drivers and mechanics and owners have, each having animosity towards the others.

I think it's a good idea and good for the BZ2 and the community at large that the drivers and mechanics and the owners keep a safe distance.

[OvermindDL1]

I played Battlezone on the Atari, played on the giant console in stores a few times when I was young, got BZ1 within a month of it coming out, yet I don't consider myself a 'vet', because near every 'vet' I've met tends to be some kind of 'rabid, 14-year old kid', not all, but the great majority, and that does not look well upon the whole.

[Spawn]

Not recommending any action to anyone here Avatar, because even if I did it would be a waste of time.  Everyone hates each other and the few that are reasonable enough to care are completely alienated.

For the physics, I haven't noticed and real difference between 1.2 and 1.3 for a while, don't care what the settings are or what can be done, just want to play.  In general devs and users are seperate, the devs don't have time to use the program like the users do, and the users who actually care are easily overwritten by some assholes who don't.  In bz2 this is relatively similar, but many modders also play, though some don't.  Most of the 1.3 beta team is happy enough playing something else and not looking back, some are too busy with work to play, getting a simple 1v1 up is hard enough, any real "strat" is nearly impossible, nobody wants to play.

[appel]

Personally, the only seperation there *should* be in a community like this, are those you prefer ISDF, and those who prefer Scion.  The term "Vet" is a joke and only serves to further splinter the community.

"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

The word "vet" is something that most of the players out there recognize, and when they see games labeled as "vet" games they learn to stay away if they can't cope with the game pace... otherwise they learn the hard way, getting kicked and all that stuff. The fact is, if nobody knows you then you most likely aren't any good. That's the only *system* we "vets" have to get a decent balanced team strategy game, is to play only with people everyone know, can vouch for and know their skill-level of.

And don't tell me this is bad because then newer players won't be able to get as good if they can't play with us. There are always new players in vet games, but they're willing to learn and listen. Most of the "noobs" out there don't want to read chat, don't want to listen, they think that killing others is bad and the whole game everyone should be friends and killing scavs is a taboo. I'm not wasting my evenings on crap like that, sorry. I'd rather play with someone who's at my skill-level.

As for that seperation you mention, well, it's already here and it's been here for a long time. I get kicked out of noob games because I do "too good", and noobs get kicked out of vet games because they simply wouldn't know the enemy even if it was shooting at him. And scion gets played by us vets, we're not only doing ISDF...although scion gets played a lot less than isdf I admit.

And no, we're not *evil*. We're simply at another plain, be a higher or lower, or parellel...who cares.


As for vets being a part of the "beta team", whatever that means, I can only say one name - TimeVirus. I believe he quit it because his arguments were not listened to? That guy has more development time for BZ2 under his belt than anyone in here, and still he wasn't listened to. That's like getting Dr. Phil to give you advice in person, and you tell him to piss off.


As for GSH, he should really try try to find some balance or all his hard work is worthless, it's a sacrifice...yea, but... "Deal with it."

[Spawn]

TV is still on the beta, but moderately dead to bz2, or at least these boards.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

seperation of skilled players from the noobs exsist in *every* game, in bz2 its just more critical as EVERY player can change the outcome of the game

if you're playing with 12 more players on your team who cares if one of them sucks?


as Spawn said theres a hate here towards vets, its not realy a secret


the vets that left the beta BZZ left because they werent listened to, if I'm not mistaken DF left ater GSH put in being hit for staying up in air, no?

If the Vets still want to help then please start helping by testing the physics\balance tweaks & helping to create a vet recycler variant that is extremly close to the 1.2 physics\balance.  Now is not the time to yell & scream about the physics however now is the time start helping by being constructive with providing some feedback on the preliminary physics\balance tweaks.

why?
do we have a say now? accordnig to you guys, yes, according to the devs - nope, vice versa even - for some reason I feel that if I would comment on how to improve physics / how it can be done the devs will find another way to kill it
I'm dead serious here

on PB1 for example, when we found a way to bring hover back all we got was a player getting banned, and even worse physics
while you guys are speaking for 1.3 and saying one thing, the devs (GSH) shows a complete diffrent attitude
you're telling us to post feedback, and then GSH comes and shows he doesnt give a *Ammo* and how much he hates us


why should I help 1.3 when all I get from the devs is a "*Ammo*-you" attitude?

[appel]

Well, GSH is a self-eccentric tard And I laugh at him, and pity him, for taking 4 years to do 1.3, with these results.

I'm willing to give my opinion about ships physics as long as someone is trying to get the good ol' 1.2 feeling back in (applause to them) - Despite all the cra* that's going on in this thread right now.

[Avatar]

"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

Not at all.  Don't mistake "Vets" as used here for any other meaning used for Vets anywhere else.  It took on a meaning all it's own here.   It was all about attitude as far as the Beta test goes.  Some players insisted on addressing balance issues far too early in the beta.  Look at RD right now.  All the work he's put into the actual subject of this thread, the physics, just got blown out of the water by Ken coming back to the Beta and adjusting the engine.  RD can now toss everything he's done and go back to waiting to see how it all turns out...  Like Slaor said, "it's no fun developing to a moving target".

Betas are work.  They're not supposed to be fun.  If you want fun you wait until the finished product comes out.

The strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.  Most games start out at one level, and as soon as players achieve Vet level you'll see advanced mods come out to give them more of a challenge.  BZ2 is the only game I've seen where there's such a feeling of ownership by the Vet community.

I like that feeling, but the Vets need to realize everyone who loves this game has it, not just them...

-Av-

MY GAME! MINE!  MINEMINEMINE! 

[appel]

"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

Not at all.  Don't mistake "Vets" as used here for any other meaning used for Vets anywhere else.  It took on a meaning all it's own here.   It was all about attitude as far as the Beta test goes.  Some players insisted on addressing balance issues far too early in the beta.  Look at RD right now.  All the work he's put into the actual subject of this thread, the physics, just got blown out of the water by Ken coming back to the Beta and adjusting the engine.  RD can now toss everything he's done and go back to waiting to see how it all turns out...  Like Slaor said, "it's no fun developing to a moving target".

Betas are work.  They're not supposed to be fun.  If you want fun you wait until the finished product comes out.

The strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.  Most games start out at one level, and as soon as players achieve Vet level you'll see advanced mods come out to give them more of a challenge.  BZ2 is the only game I've seen where there's such a feeling of ownership by the Vet community.

I like that feeling, but the Vets need to realize everyone who loves this game has it, not just them...

-Av-

MY GAME! MINE!  MINEMINEMINE! 

Don't go stupid. What do you think we're trying to do in this thread? We're TRYING to get the game working like it did in 1.2, WITHOUT much luck. The 1.3 developers ignored our opinions, disliked us for expressing our opinions, and hard-coded it in the engine so we simply COULDN'T get the gameplay we're looking for.
I wouldn't care less how 1.3 is as default, I'm only interested in getting it working with a "1.2 rec variant". But appearently it's not enough to please the newbies, you have to piss off the vets too by making it impossible for us to do that.

A moving-target is when the requirements constantly change. Our only *requirement* has been known from the beginning, it is for the gameplay, physics and other stuff, to be more like 1.2. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Besides, I think the most fun part of making a software, game or whatever, is for people actually USING IT.

The strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.

You're talking about games like Battlefield, where there are maybe 30 players on a server, many of them very experienced, and some beginners. Of course the newbies are gonna die a lot, and whine.
But for BZ2 this doesn't apply since you don't have the vets and the newbies playing together. So what is there to whine about if you're always playing with people at the same skill level?


You guys have to stop thinking of BZ2 like a popular new game, it's OLD and it can only survive by retaining to those who already play it. Displease them and you've already doomed it.

[Avatar]

*sigh*

This IS a moving target.  BETA means it's a moving target.  OK, you don't like 'target' because you think the target is 1.2 physics, when in fact the 'target' is the game engine.  A BETA revolves around and focuses on the engine, especially in the beginning.  GSH has done wonders with the engine despite personal attacks and vendettas against him.  All of the important work was under the hood and until that work is done you can't do a damn thing with physics and gameplay and be sure all your work won't go right out the window with one little change somewhere else.  Ken just proved that by completely breaking my mod with one little change he made, which he luckily could fix or I'd have been out months of work.

Anyway...

It should never have become personal.  You can argue that GSH made it that way but when it all comes down to it it's his time and effort, and the 1.2 players have 1.2 forever and ever and ever... Anyone who feels SO put out by 1.3 or GSH that they can't stand it is welcome to go play 1.2 and completely ignore the Beta, but instead they come here and flame, go to other boards and flame, hang around online and flame, attack the guy that's doing the work...

Sad.  Very sad.

Like I said, the only thing that's needed is for the exact kind of reports you're giving.  If Ken hangs in there we don't even need to play with ODF's, he can change the engine specs to the point where it's very much like 1.2 as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering.

-Av-

[appel]

This IS a moving target.  BETA means it's a moving target. 

I've studied software engineering, and a moving target is a constant change in basic requirements throughout the software lifecycle. Beta has no special meaning.

GSH has done wonders with the engine despite personal attacks and vendettas against him.
It should never have become personal.  You can argue that GSH made it that way but when it all comes down to it it's his time and effort, and the 1.2 players have 1.2 forever and ever and ever... Anyone who feels SO put out by 1.3 or GSH that they can't stand it is welcome to go play 1.2 and completely ignore the Beta, but instead they come here and flame, go to other boards and flame, hang around online and flame, attack the guy that's doing the work...
Sad.  Very sad.

Well, yes, GSH made it personal. Some people just are like that, unable to turn negative feedback into positive constructive feedback.

As for playing 1.2, we are doing it already. The bulk of the players are ignoring 1.3 completely. Your only hope to get them into 1.3 is to listen to us, that's why we are here... not because it's fun for us, because as stated many times before - someone needs to do it.
Even if you managed to get 1.3 to a point that it's identical to 1.2, I'm not even sure anyone can get the bulk of the players to play 1.3. It's gone that ugly.

Like I said, the only thing that's needed is for the exact kind of reports you're giving.  If Ken hangs in there we don't even need to play with ODF's, he can change the engine specs to the point where it's very much like 1.2 as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering.

Those kind of reports I'm giving have been reported many times before, but always somehow got *lost* in all the *noise*.
And that "as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering" comment is silly and only meant to prolong this off-topic nonsense - why do you still think that is why we're here for? Get it out of your system already, come on. I almost state in every feedback post I make that I'm not asking for infinite-hovering back.

[Lizard]

it's sad when you think about it, alot of this animosity between GSH and the vet community stems back to the pandi board days and most of it was Asmo's doing, he's long gone now but he did a proper job of poisoning the well before he left, if he could see us now he'd be pissing himself with laughter.   



I wish we could all just put our prejudices aside because in reality we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

"Gonna have to tape Dr Who"


I've actually already seen the entire 1st season of the "New" Who...I liked it.

[Lizard]

"Gonna have to tape Dr Who"


I've actually already seen the entire 1st season of the "New" Who...I liked it.

I thought it sucked arse bigtime .