Preliminary Physics Tweaks Posted

[Avatar]

"Alpha" marks the first semi-functional release of a product.  "Beta" usually means the point where it's almost functional and ready for testing, although some of time I wonder who gets to decide that.  Neither one of them inidicates in any way that the product is even close to it's finished form.  Several of the betas I've been part of rapidly became nothing like what was started with.

You may have studied software development but I've lived it for decades, and a Beta is indeed a moving target.  You never know from one release to the next just what works, and what doesn't, or what's going to be completely different from the previous release.  Perhaps I should have focused on the word "Test" more, so I could be taken more literally.  :p

In either case, as you said and has been said to death around these boards BZ2 is a dead game.  I doubt very much whether Ken or Nathan care one bit how many people play 1.2 vs 1.3, or if there's any life left in the game.  Part of the reason there's so much attitude involved is that, for them, it's probably more of a personal wish to NOT leave work undone, to fulfill a desire to learn and experiment on their own, and to touch on parts of the program that they weren't originally part of than any real attempt to keep BZ alive.

Again, I don't see why it becomes so personal.  Even your "don't be stupid" comments take it beyond a civil discussion and make it personal, and the disrespect and attitude comes crashing in again.  It's gone that way every time the word "Vets" has appeared in a thread and I don't see that ending any time soon.

There's just something about anything involving 1.3 and the Strat side of the community that makes things devolve into flame wars.  It's been that way from the start and it'll probably never end.

And, since I respect RD too much to continue to hijack his thread, that's all I've got to say.  This thread is pretty much dead until Ken gets done with whatever he's doing in the continuing beta anyway.

-Av-

[appel]

I agree this shouldn't continue. We've all been down this road many times before.

But with regards to GSH and Ken not wanting to leave work undone, I think that's a awful much personal leverage thinking like that. The results are the bulk of the players are left out to dry because of their personal reasons, how's that for not leaving work undone? But they don't read this, and they don't care. So why do we bother?

Anyway, the only reason I check these forums is to check if RD has uploaded a new config for the scouts. I'm hoping he will continue that work.

[BZZERKER]

appel, Ken has made some changes to the "engine" that have made all the work RD has done useless, and as such he has decided to put things on hold.

PF, I wasn't talking about DF, ZA or Aeg leaving. There were a great many vets involved before I was allowed into beta and most of them were gone by time I got in. Just look through these names from the 1.3PB2 Read me and tell me how many names you recognize as vets.

From Read me:

*sinbad*, @4u, APCs r Evil, arcer, aougli, Avatar, Big_Kenny, Blarbo, blewyn, BS-er, Bull Dog, BZ Wardog , BZZERKER, Centerline, CmptrWz, Commando, Condor, Coxxon, DarkFox, Dirty Rooster, DutchBoy, FireFLY, Fishbone, FraKTal, Fried, General BlackDragon, General Manson, Grass69er, GreenHeart, Huscar, IceWendigo, Jetfire, Juvat, LastBoyScout, Lizard, LoClubberlick, MalevolencE, markshelby, Marzipan, Marzipan2u, Mattroxx, MAUS, Menacer, Montana, Mother's Helper, MowerMan, Namarrgon, Natty Bumppo, NoK0mm3nt, NukeDaddy, OldManGloom, Onyx, OvermindDL1, Pastell, psych0fred, Red Devil, RubiconAlpha, Ryoanji, sabrebattletank, Scout, (SFP)Shadower, Shane Ward, SilverB1rd, Slaor, Smoke_Jaguar, Smuggler, SFP Sonic, spAce, Spacecomber, Spawn, Speedy, SquareEyes, StrangeFLY, technoid, Tempest Storm, TimeVirus, Tyreal Mathias, zeeder, Zero Angel, ZOEBart, {VnB}Aegeis, ~RIP~Maverick-=F=-

That list is only a partial list because there were some names that got lost due to a board swap from the post Pandi boards that @4u had set-up to the one before this one. I believe you would see a great many more names you would recognize if they hadn't been lost.

[Spawn]

The changes to the engine have afected the physics, but I'm not sure how much.  Might be good for RD to continue the tweaking, or I could play around with things if he would like to take a bf2 break

As for those testers, how many of them have actually tried the patch and said something in the last month?  Most got on the patch, played it for a bit then went to other things, this is not includign those who were are on that list but were removed/left since 66a I think it was.

[Red Devil]

appel, I would really appreciate it if you would stop criticizing GSH.  I really think it's beneath you and it serves no purpose.

Two devs have worked on it part time after working full 10-12 hour days doing what a full team of programmers working full time would have taken 1-2 years to do.

To expect things to be just the way you want them when you get a release is very unrealistic.  Heck, I've posted a few dozen of just ODF tweaks and I'm nowhere near close.

Believe me guys, they are not doing this for personal reasons.  We all do this because BZ is unique and we love it.

And there's lot more to it than physics. The devs are working now on making the engine better by improving memory allocations.

[Avatar]

Lol yes, but Microsloft is making that a tough job right now...   

-Av-

[squirrelof09]

Microsloft LOL!!

[Red Devil]

They are very good at that...

Lol yes, but Microsloft is making that a tough job right now...

-Av-

[BZZERKER]

As for those testers, how many of them have actually tried the patch and said something in the last month?  Most got on the patch, played it for a bit then went to other things, this is not includign those who were are on that list but were removed/left since 66a I think it was.

That's exactly my point Spawn. With the exception of a few of the ~RIP~ guys and a few others, Stratters were no longer being represented and even then they didn't post a whole lot about any actual testing. It always got put off until the weekend when some of us bot-killers with jobs could join in to help fill the games up. They either quietly sulked away or went kicking and screaming and most of it was due to no more nose down. The ~RIP~ er's have apparently now moved on to other games as I hardly see any of them around at all.

I will put what Av has been saying a bit more bluntly. The majority of Startters want this and that but don't want to do any of the work to get this and that. This is because most of the Stratters are still kids, spoiled by instant gratification of having mom and dad hand them everything. The real world will teach them differently when they get jobs.

[Avatar]

I don't see it as that bad...

I see it more like asking an Indy driver to help with a transmission overhaul.  Nobody knows more about the car, the dynamics of driving it, the way it performs, than the driver does but very few drivers have the skills to both drive AND rebuild the tranny.  Those skills aren't mutually exclusive but few have time to fully develop both.  (In BZ2 terms TV comes to mind as both driver and mechanic...)

It's very frustrating for the driver to sit through the parts where the transmission is spread out all over the floor, while it's easy for the mechanic to grab a beer and watch the race afterward, happy in the knowledge that it was his work that put the car on the track.

It's very hard for dedicated Stratters to sit through the parts where everything they know feels wrong (physics), or the focus is on things they hate (too effective AI), where their skills and areas of expertise aren't relevant.  It's much easier for Modders to dig into the odfs and cfgs, then kick around a game thinking they're testing everything when in fact they're somewhat blind to the ebb and flow of a higher level match.

Still, it does take patience to muddle through the engine tuning part of the process, and maturity to not get all bent when the focus doesn't shift when they want it to. 

Modders go "can I have THIS?", and when the Devs say "NO" Modders go "Then howabout THIS?".  Each turned down request just adds more challenge to a modder's greed index.   

Stratters go "We need THIS or the game is broken." and when the Devs say "NO" the Stratters go away... 

-Av-

[OvermindDL1]

I have to chime in about this real quick...

But for BZ2 this doesn't apply since you don't have the vets and the newbies playing together.

Why do you think the lower-end people cannot seem to get better, because to get better they need to play with people better then them.
That is part of the fragmentation I was talking about.  In every other multi-player game I play, I always see some high-end people helping the low-end, showing them how to do things, because they want to turn them into a challenge.  The high-end's in this community seem to want to segregate themselves, which will just hurt them in the long run as they continue to shrink.

[Avatar]

All games are like that.  Players quickly learn which servers are newb tolerant and which aren't, and gravitate towards the ones that suite them the best.  From Diablo to Doom to Tribes 2 you'll find the good and the bad.  For BZ2 it's just that there's such a small player base...  makes your choices much more limited.

Makes me wonder what the Community could do if it tried.  Maybe start up some servers that welcomed newbs and had Vets training them, or start ladders and webspace that ranked players and tracked their progress and availability.  Some sort of system for registering handles to eliminate smurfing...

Lots of things that 'could be'...   

-Av-

[Spawn]

But in the high end of any community there are always scrims, where the new are made fun of, that isn't everywhere, but that is what happens.  In bz2, 90% of the time when there is a new player, some unknown to the vets who begs for a chance to play, they go in for five minutes, die over and over, and then call everyone cheaters and quit.  Whenever I play in 1.1 either I am kicked or the other team quits.  In 1.2 there are means for palyers to get better, asking for help or tips on forums can get you something, asking to join a clan or get training from them.  "Vets" is bz2 aren't always good, but they are known, they can hit pools or run away, but won't quit for no reason like new players do.  Just less in bz2 that other, more popular games, not many new players are coming in.  Also, in other games does the entire community of vets know each other?  Does everyone who palys regularlly know each other?  On a specific server maybe, but not in the whole game.  Bz2 has a much different community.  Not to mention in any other game there are always people who will just kill you and laugh at you because you suck, it can be hard to find out soemone to help you get better, and it's easier to just play with people who suck and be able to kill them.  Not to mention that having one bad player in the game is at least a quarter of the potential ability, so one bad player is not just an annotance to you, but a waste of recources and a benefit to the other team.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

not gonna comment on everything but theres few things I do want to mention -


perhaps the straters that were on beta did quit, and it realy wasnt their time to be on the beta, very understandable as was mentioned before - it just wasnt the time to work on the things they know most about.
so yeah, some of them quit, some of them whinned - so now when you do need them you're gonna turn them down just because "they had their chance"? thats just BS
we come here offernig to help, and its not like we're gonna enjoy it - I much rather play a strat game then a test a new scout build, or a new balance issue, or w/e
and yet, we get the finger...

Stratters go "We need THIS or the game is broken."

cant agree with this sentence. there are also modders who said "we need THIS or the game is broken" and left. you just picked the wrong people.

as for that beta list - I counted ~15 people I consider vets out of ~83
and TBH, I would've quit too if a project would have dragged over 2 years without me being able to do nearly anything to help
its frustrating and a waste of everyones time

Why do you think the lower-end people cannot seem to get better, because to get better they need to play with people better then them.

there are new vets almost every 2 months or so

[Red Devil]

One thing people *really* need to understand is that when a beta patch is released is that there's going to be problems.  It's *not* going to be just the way you like it right out of the gate.  In fact, there's a number of known problems that we need everybody's help in tracking down.

Insulting the devs because the physics now aren't the way you like them or that it broke your mod or any number of things like really betrays a lack of understanding of the process.  It's not simple and it's not easy.  Some things are going to break in the process and some things are going to get better.

It's really easy to point fingers and find fault with someone who is working.  But try doing that job yourself and having people do it to you and you'll will quickly find your attitude changing.

Also, trust me, testing isn't for everyone.  Most people either don't know how to test or they just want to play.  It can be extremely tedious and repetitive at times. Sessions can last an hour or so, but most of the ones I do last about 1-5 minutes and many of them are back to back.  Heck, I've had many days where I've had 50 BZ loads a day.  And that's just me with a few ODF's.  Expand that to understanding and adjusting 500,000 lines of inter-related logic and the task becomes mind numbing.

Be thankful we have the devs working on this game for us.  I can't think of one other game where the original programmers are working on it in the little spare time they have to make it better.