Balancing issue-(I am not trying to open this can of worms again)

[Michael]

Over all the balance of 1.3 is awesome. The only thing I have noticed and would like to understand the reason for, has to do with the defensive structures/units. Again I am not trying to open balance issues with anything but these two aspects, because I think the balance is very good overall.

1) It seems that turrets for both scion and isdf rotate way too slowly to be as effective as they should be.

2) The spire's "spray" reduces its effectiveness on a single unit. This combined with the extremely slow firing rate, causes much less damage because most of the bolts hit the ground and are too slow to cause the damage that it used too. In addition, the spires rotate a little too slowly also. I suggest either increasing the firing rate slightly or reducing the spray of the spires. As a basis for balance, one assault tank with plasma in range of the spire, should not out live the spire. Just as one titan should not outlive a GT.

One question also. I was under the assumption that stasis shield does reduced damage against particle and energy weapons, somewhat less than the deflect and abs does alone. However, I am told by a player that stasis actually does worse against chain, than absorption does against chain. Is this correct? Maybe an updated chart of the damage and such would be helpful. Thanks!

[TheJamsh]

the chain guns damage against the stasis shield is modified in the chain guns bullet file:

chain_c
chain_a

damageValue(S) = ### // this line specifies how much damage is given to a unit when it has a stasis shield equipped. this is usually half way between (A) and (D) values to give the impression that it protects evenly against both particle and energy weapons

remember that the Titan is designed to be a powerful unit. it has to fullfil the missing Attila Walker and Assault Tank on its own.

the gun spire has long been argued as a fairly ineffective gun turret. you can always increase the damage doen to high armoured vehicles using the damageValue(H) = ### in the gun spires bullet ODF.

rotation can be done using omegaTurret = "". but this will also effect the 'standby mode rotation' that the gun turret performs.

thik about how much those things would weigh in real life anyway? a solid metal upper half? whatevers driving it must have a high power to spin it as fast as it does! the game should be as realistic as possible.

would electricity from a gun spire really penetrate thick bio-metal armour? i doubt it... we dont even know if bio-metal conducts electricity 

[Feared_1]

As a basis for balance, one assault tank with plasma in range of the spire, should not out live the spire. Just as one titan should not outlive a GT.

Titans have always outlived gun towers. That's why they're called Titans. They're suppose to be the most feared Scion unit, and in most cases they are. If Titans are made weaker, their cost would have to decrease and there wouldn't be as much of a rush to get one out as fast as you can. That's too much of an effect for a small change. The inverse would happen for the ISDF if the gun tower had been increased in power. More cost, more rush, different play.

Assault Tanks, like Titans, have always outlived Gun Spires. The ISDF have Assault Tanks to assault an enemy base or group. They would not be as much use if they were brought down in power. Gun Spires that could easily take out Assault Tanks and other units would, again, have to be changed. That means higher price, more of a rush, and different play.

Ok so I exaggerated a little, but...

The goal of PB5 was not to change the way you play the game. GSH wanted to keep it as close to stock as possible. You could easily satisfy your request by making a Recycler variant that includes exactly what you want. I believe the GH variant has Assault Spires that can shoot 3 Arc Blasts at once.

[Commando]

Michael, if you are playing with the 1.2 recycler variant, yes it has issues.

I'll try adjusting the aiming values to use the 1.2 defaults.

[Red Devil]

Troublemaker.....

Damage values for Gun Spires have not changed since 1.2.

I just checked the damage done by chain and it does more damage against absorption than stasis, but only by a small amount (1), which is weird.

The weapons/craft in BZ2 were meant to complement and counter one another, so using/comparing just one type of weapon/craft will weaken your abilities to attack and defend.

Conclusion: Build and use more than one of everything.   

[Michael]

Ok, I guess it was a bad example with the titan/assault tank, so lets just forget that, haha.

I am not sure of the variant that we played, Spawn would know. However, these spires did shoot out 4 lightenings, however, they sprayed out and only 1 hit the tank, and did minimal damage. Also I was able to practically wobble kill a spire in a game I just played with commando.

Also to clarify, I am not as concerned with the damage values, they should not change unless they are grossly out of order. However, even if the GS has the same damage, but cannot put it out as fast, or redirects it, then the real game play damage values WOULD have changed.

It just seems like the GS are not like the 1.2 versions, and that was confirmed by Commando. So . . . if I play a different rec varient than 1.2, will the GS be different also?

I agree that stasis should probably be halfway in between def and abs, but what RD is saying, is that its not.

Again, not trying to cause trouble, just want to make sure that things are the way they were planned to be 

[wug]

I always thought of gun spires as a "poor man's" alternative to titans.  Specifically, when down to two scrap pools, I don't want to count on maulers alone for defense.

[GENERAL MANSON*]

Why not give the gun spires an option to upgrade with two sub options for upgrading like a mini jammer or extra range gunspire?

[Zero Angel]

I just always assumed that equipping stasis was like upgrading to (L) armour. And chains are effective vs all armour types (except for maybe deflect, obviously)

As far as spire damage goes, it seems to be OK as it is, in my opinion. It is still way effective vs lightly armoured units, though the wobble killing could probably use fixing, since GS's are hard to outmaneuver in 1.2 and they are perfectly balanced in (even their damage vs heavy units, as maulers are usually the preferred choice of repelling seiges)

Feared is right about the titans. As-is, they require 3 pools and cost almost as much as a bomber bay, each. They are still vulnerable to mortaer attacks and maulers, so they are perfectly balanced in, IMO.

The only problem I see here, is that jammers are still too up balanced. As-is, they are inexpensive as well as to build, and prevent APCs/Bombers and the ordering of seige attacks, for a mere 50 scrap. If anything should balance them in, I would suggest a MUCH longer build time, like that of about 10 seconds.

[Michael]

I don't really want to bring up any other balance issues but the stasis and GS that I mentioned above, just to keep it focused and reduce any heated balance debates.

But if you think about it, the jammers actually are quite expensive because they require the overseerer which is 80 on top of the 60 for the antenna. Also they are super weak, so you need to build a lot of them to be safe. There is a very simple counter to jammers that I will leave for your discovery if you have not found it as of yet.

It may be that the spires in pb4 are different than what was in the previous RC. Someone might want to try it, and see what I am referring too. But I think that Commando is looking into it by now.

I am always a favor of upgrading GS or GT's! However, it probably should not turn into a starfleet mod type of thing. . .

[GSH]

1.3pb4 makes it *really easy* to rebalance things -- just make a recycler variant, with costs adjusted as you wish. It's just a few files, and a few lines in each. Recycler variants are auto-registering, so you can just drop them in.

-- GSH

[Commando]

I tweaked the ai aiming values which should help.  I actually restored them to their default values.

[Commando]

There seems to be something badly off in teh 1.2 aiming behavior.  Even an odf ripped stright from 1.2, with the new aiming behavior has the same issue.

Something has changed since 1.2 that isn't being accounted for when the 1.2 aiming code is used.  What that is, I have no idea.

[technoid]

I don't know if this is related to it, but since changes in 1.3 (from 1.2),  the movement of the GS, GT and the turrets (actually anything turreted) look rather 'clumsy'.  They move their heads, or the cannon parts, up and down while the main turret spins towards the target direction.  In 1.2, they looked more polished when they turned, without them wobbling/bobbling (e,g. on their y axis).  Hopefully someone knows what I'm babbling about.