Battlezone 3

[GSH]

I have a couple of Sega Dreamcasts and the mouse and keyboard to go with them. It is too bad more consoles don't have the option because playing Quake3 on the Dreamcast with a keyboard and mouse works great and that's an old system.

Try a PS3 and Unreal 3 -- see http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=574996 , among other places. Note the 2007 date on the posts.

-- GSH

[Dianoga4]

Well that's good to see. Thanks for posting that GSH. I've been meaning to look up whether any of the newer systems supported keyboard and mouse but never got around to it. I don't have a PS3 and don't think I will be getting one any time soon but I do have an Xbox360. I'm kinda surprised that right off the hop there wasn't some kind of keyboard and mouse available or maybe there was and I just haven't noticed it yet, I'll have to look it up and check it out.

Ugg, just found this, I couldn't imagine using this thing.



Dia

[TheJamsh]

haha, oh dear. thats got to be a 3d model right? not a real thing.

i just aksed a silly question i think

[Nielk1]

It is a 3D model, but it is likely that if not a fun on the side render by some singleton on the internet (not part of a company), there is a working one somewhere.

[OvermindDL1]

No, that controller is real.  That one friend of mine with the massive TV has one of those.  See, the system is begging for real inputs, Microsoft just needs to allow it already (although too late by this point, games would still not support them from earlier).  Also, not only is that controller real it is Microsoft made as I recall, not a third-party.

{
    EDIT:  Yep, I was right, here it is(walmart.com), Microsoft made and all.  Part of the standard "Messenger Kit" it seems.  *Only* usable for typing messages, in-game use is disallowed.
}

As for mice/gamepads, gamepads are quite obviously slower, just think for once:  Gamepads are an absolute axis device, Mice are relative axis device, ergo it is pretty obvious that mice have far greater control and accuracy.  For the thinking impaired:
Absolute means that it has defined boundaries, from -1.0 to 1.0 for example.  This means if you want to move slowly, you have to move it a little across the axis, not so bad when you have a control that slides over a few feet in length (like the high-end joysticks throttles), but when it is tiny the possible movable area is vastly reduced (like on a gamepad).  Multiplication of the value is commonly used to exaggerate the movements (usually called sensitivity in games for some unknown reason), this means if you have it set low then you have wonderful accuracy for things like sniping, but if you need to move fast, even moving the axis to its limit still limits you to a small amount due to the fine control, however, if you increase the multiplier then you can make large fast movements, but accuracy per unit is vastly reduced as the jump between units is increased.  It is wonderful for aircraft and such controls as it matches perfectly to the underlying hardware (as you can only move a rudder so far, that would match the limit of the controller, a perfect 1:1 mapping).
Relative means a change over time rather then an absolute position, this means that if there are no changes since the last update it reports zero, if you move a certain distance up then it will report a certain value in a certain axis just for the reported instance since last capture, as such if you set it to a small multiplier then you have detailed accuracy, and instead of needing to wait for the 'cursor' to get to the position you want, once you have practice then you just instinctively know how far you need to move it to move that amount, thus allowing you to 'jump' any amount of distance in as quick a time as you need, meaning you can literally do a 180 in less then a game frame.  If you wish to move faster over a shorter distance then you can increase the multiplier, and if you have a 'gaming' mouse (a high DPI mouse, cheap nowadays) your tiny movements for accuracy are not impacted, most gaming mice have buttons that can on-the-fly switch the dpi higher or lower (as my mouse has) if I need higher accuracy over larger movement distances, like sniping, or faster movements over shorter distances, run-n-gunning.

Now, compare this to game types:
Aircraft sim, it has rudders, wings, whatever other things on it, and of all the pieces that can move they have a limit to the amount they can move, hence it matches up perfect with an absolute axis device.
A little top/side-down/etc... platformer (Mario, galaga, etc..), you can walk slow and you can walk fast, but there is an upper limit to how fast you can move, it matches to an absolute axis.
For driving games, the car has a max set speed, and it has a max rotational distance that the wheels can rotate to turn the vehicle, both match an absolute axis device (most commonly a steering wheel).
For an FPS you can move forward/backward/strafe-left/right, you have a max set speed so it matches to an absolute axis device (although most people generally either go very slow, or max speed, nothing in-between, hence why a keyboard works perfect for it since you have walking, and shift-walk-slow or what-not, although there are "claw" devices which are like part of a keyboard on a joystick that you hold like a claw, while you hold the mouse in your other hand, most people prefer keyboards though over a claw due to the fact it requires fewer movements), however turning around in an FPS has no bounds, you could rotate a hundred-thousand times if you want, no limit, the only factors are the speed you want to do it at and the point you want to get to (angle of direction and what-not), both of which are bad for absolute axis because the axis defines a boundary, meaning that regardless of setup you will *always* be limited in speed, and second, because an absolute axis moves things over time, it will always take some amount of time to get to the exact point you wish to look at, compare this with a relative axis device which can move at any speed, and with surprisingly little practice (with something actually trying, there are a few little games designed to practice on that work quite well, but most practice just by playing normal FPS's) you can get to the point that with your exact mouse (every mouse is slightly different, my game playing is impacted if I play on any of my friend's computers for example, although I get 'in-the-groove' fast enough, I usually just bring my own mouse and keyboard if I intend to play elsewhere), knowing exactly how its distances are setup, its accuracy, and that is when you see those PC FPSers able to just insta-snap their reticle to a persons head the second it is in view.  After all, think about it, in real-life are you going to slower turn around to shoot at someone shooting at you?  Heck no, you are going to whirl around near instantly and blow his head off before he does the same to you, cannot do that with a gamepad.
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[CivBase]

Well that's good to see. Thanks for posting that GSH. I've been meaning to look up whether any of the newer systems supported keyboard and mouse but never got around to it. I don't have a PS3 and don't think I will be getting one any time soon but I do have an Xbox360. I'm kinda surprised that right off the hop there wasn't some kind of keyboard and mouse available or maybe there was and I just haven't noticed it yet, I'll have to look it up and check it out.

Ugg, just found this, I couldn't imagine using this thing.



Dia

I have that.  I don't keep the keyboard plugged in cuz it drains the batteries, but it is actualy very comfortable as, supprisingly, nobody actualy puts their hands where the keyboard is.
And guys, I must say that as a hardcore Consol-FPS player, I find the keyboard/mouse combo very uncomfortable and unrealistic.  It just doesn't feel right to click when you should be pulling a trigger.

[TheJamsh]

The only game i would always use a game pad for is GTA IV. admitedly the game could be massively expanded on a computer (so long as you have a 9.0Ghz processing speed, an incredible video + sound card and about 80gb of ram)

I just sometimes find it nice to plug the xbox in and drive around in a life-size city with so much to do. it can be good fun. and i dont have to worry about my antivirus slowing things down etc all that jazz. its nice to chill out like that.

other than that, im a computer man

[OvermindDL1]

Pulling a trigger is still clicking you know.
And there are mouse of all shapes, you do not have to have the normal design one, there are upright ones, I saw one that looks like a gun, etc...  Remember, this is not a console, you can actually have variety.

My main irritant with gamepads is they become so painful after about ten minutes, holding my hands in that 90degree angle is painful, whereas I can keep my hands flat (like keyboard style) for a good 3 days straight (and have... many times...).

Anti-virus, bah, kill that thing whenever you do something intensive, like gaming, or compiling (especially compiling, I do not keep an AV running just because one running will turn a compile from a 45 minute job to a 4.5 hour job... ack...).
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[CivBase]

Pulling a trigger is still clicking you know.
And there are mouse of all shapes, you do not have to have the normal design one, there are upright ones, I saw one that looks like a gun, etc...  Remember, this is not a console, you can actually have variety.

I'd really rather not pay extra for a cool gun mouse, and the clicking thing doesn't have the same feel as shooting.  Can you honestly say that clicking on a mouse or pressing spacebar feels the same as pulling a trigger?  I sure don't think so.

[Dianoga4]

Everyone is going to have their own preference and that's fine, some like consoles over computers and some are the opposite.

In response to your last post CivBase, in my opinion, clicking a mouse or spacebar doesn't give that feeling of pulling a trigger but neither does pulling those trigger buttons on the game consoles. I like playing the Halo games for example, I have all three but I don't get that feeling of pulling a gun trigger from the Xbox controller especially when in other games the same trigger buttons are used for other things as well.

I was watching a video game review show last week and they were talking about UT3 on the PS3. They said the game was really good and all but they did also mention that UT3 will always rule on the computer more then the consoles just because of the use of the mouse and keyboard. I've heard it said many times before on different shows that first person shooters were made more for computers than they were for consoles. You just have quicker response for things like turning around, you can be alot more accurate faster and you have alot more buttons to customize to what you like.

Again these are my opinions. I'm not trying or thinking I'm going to change anyone's mind here, just giving my opinion.

Dia

[OvermindDL1]

Since you asked, no, clicking a mouse does not feel like pulling a trigger, but then again, neither do the 360/ps3 gamepads.  The gamepads I fight with, painful, awkward button layout, you have to pick and choose what you can press at once (want to turn and jump at the same time, hah, fat chance), whereas with the keyboard/mouse I can have everything setup perfectly so that I can hit anything I need at any time, as well as with the mouse it feels more like a streamlined interface, do not need to move your fingers as far (barely need them to twitch actually, cannot say that about the 360/ps3 gamepads), just takes a lot less conscious thought overall.

And I cannot say I have ever used the spacebar for an attack, what game are you talking about?
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[CivBase]

Since you asked, no, clicking a mouse does not feel like pulling a trigger, but then again, neither do the 360/ps3 gamepads.  The gamepads I fight with, painful, awkward button layout, you have to pick and choose what you can press at once (want to turn and jump at the same time, hah, fat chance), whereas with the keyboard/mouse I can have everything setup perfectly so that I can hit anything I need at any time, as well as with the mouse it feels more like a streamlined interface, do not need to move your fingers as far (barely need them to twitch actually, cannot say that about the 360/ps3 gamepads), just takes a lot less conscious thought overall.

And I cannot say I have ever used the spacebar for an attack, what game are you talking about?
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Most games use spacebar as an alternative fire button.
You obviously don't play consol games if you think the layout is acward.  Everything takes time to get used to, you can't honestly tell me that you were typing at 80wpm when you first started using a computer.  No, you probably pecked at buttons like most people do as beginners (in fact, I did that for almost 5 years of computers; very slow).

[VSMIT]

While many things do just take getting used to, some people just can't stand the use of a gamepad.  Nothing against the console, but I think that, especially on FPS games, there should be an option for keyboard and mouse, instead of gamepad.  ZP's Turok review made a good point regarding this.

VSMIT.

[OvermindDL1]

I've never seen any non-dos fps game yet that uses a spacebar as a fire of any sort, usually something like an action button (before that default changed to "e") or jump (that is the common spacebar now), what game are you referring to?

I grew up with PC's (father as a head IT at a phone company, and an unending supply of parts tends to do that, I never even played outside, on playgrounds, etc... nothing, was always on a computer, I still have my first 'real' pc, an IBM 80x88 that I eventually put a 10 meg hard drive in, my first 'computer' though was a Commodore Vic20 (the first mainstream/public Commodore that failed miserably) where I learned assembler with a memory cartridge, memory poker, and a very thick book), so I cannot remember a time where I did not type fast, I can easily exceed 120 when I get going well.  As for consoles, I never owned one until recently, but practically all my friends did (Nintendo, atari, playstation, etc... and all that) so I got plenty of use with them, the gamepad was always uncomfortable because of the weird angle my hand has to be at to use it (my hands like to rest flat, like on a table, keeping them angled 90 degrees becomes painful after a short time), so yes, with well over 20 years of experience with gamepads, I can say they truly suck as a controlling medium in the vast majority of games, and I can list the reasons why, again, if you so wish.
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[TheJamsh]

surely this is an OT topic now ?