Some issues for debate (UPDATED)

[cheesepuffly]

This is one of the few places that i post where people actually can take things seriously, so id like your opinion on a few things. Just lemme know which one your responding to, you dont have to do all of them.

K ready?

1. Crime: In my opinion, we should up the punishment for crime, then there would be less of it. Like say get the death penalty a bit easier. If your intent was to kill, then you get it no matter what degree.  (not saying that specifically though). Or double the time in jail for various offenses.

2. Animal Treatment: This kind of goes along with top one, but in my opinion, even if you dont do it with other crimes, you should atleast up the punishment for Domestic Animal Cruelty. The thing is, although animals are not nearly as important as humans, they still feel the pain a human does. And for the most part, i think the animal has it worse than a human when someone is doing something to it. The human understands whats going on, the animal does not.

3. Beginning of the Universe: I cant remember who it was who said in the evolution thread that evolution was a proven fact (im not trying to pick you out or say your wrong or anything) and i said you shouldnt call it a fact.  Id like to bring that up again. 

This goes for BOTH ways the universe came into be and the people who believe it, evolutionist or creationist. No one should call these facts. Why? Because not everyone agrees with it. Sure saying some ultimate being who can do anything created the universe in 6 days including us and there is a single book that answers all the worlds problems is a bit far fetched, but so is saying our complex life forms came from a single cell by chance, and before that the whole universe was smaller than a needle head and exploded in less than a second into what we know today.   All im saying is, people should not call either versions a fact. Gravity is a fact. We revolve around the sun, thats a fact. Cheese is awesome, thats a fact. Its something for the most part everyone can agree too. Evolutionists can find proof of their version and Creationists can find proof of their version. Dont call either side a fact. THIS IS NOT A PLACE TO DEBATE it.

I have decided to expand the issues, feel free to send me a PM for a request.

4. Gay Marriage: Whats your opinion on this subject? My opinion, they love each other like if not more than most Straight Couples, and atleast in the U.S. one of the main things is the Pursuit of Happiness and it does not really hurt anyone so i believe it should be allowed

5. Putting Humans Down: Cant think of any other way to say it (unrelated to animals). Injecting them with drugs to bring about their death, on the basis that they are in unbearable uncureable pain.
My opinion is also on this, yes. True, its kind of like suicide but let us say in the foreseeable future, there is no way to help that person. And every moment of their life would be in pain. And there is nothing they could do about it. IF that is true then i think you should be able to do that. BUT you must kind of work for it. As in like, get your family approval and a good amount of people whom inspect your case's approval. Those people being doctors of course.   

[AHadley]

Cheese is awesome, thats a fact.

I don't know, I may have to dispute that

The only one I have a comment on is 3). I would have said that, given the massive amount of evidence for evolution and genetics and the lack of evidence to the contrary, that it IS a fact. Take evolution out of the picture, and genetics doesn't make any sense any more.

[mrtwosheds]

Something becomes considered a "fact" once it has been proven, and until it becomes proven to be incorrect. Evolution has been proven to be occurring. We are still waiting with great interest for the proof that it is not.

[bigbadbogie]

Crime:

We are already on the verge of totalitarianism in the western world. The last thing we need is to start putting people who don't deserve it away for longer. The death penalty should be reserved for only mass murderers, serial rapists and child molesters. Only the worst of the worst.

But we should speed up the executions of these evil people. (Unfortunately though the death penalty was abolished in Australia. There are some people who really deserve it here.)

Animal Treatment:

The human understands whats going on, the animal does not.

I wouldn't go that far. We don't know that they don't understand exactly what is going on. How cruel somebody is being to them.

Beginning of the Universe:

The Universe as we call it is simply a huge accumulation of energy (and its accompanying forces) residing in the void.
It was created the same way that a planet is created. Energy is attracted to other energy and bonds together forming atoms. Atoms are attracted in the same way and bond together making particles... etc. Eventually it accumulates into the 'universe'.

Now here is the ultimate question: Where did energy come from?

[ScarleTomato]

Capital punishment is by and large more expensive for the state than imprisoning for life. It also can't be undone if new evidence proves innocence. IMO they should have induced coma for life as the capital punishment.

As for animals, sure you should be able to remove the abused animal from the abusers custody but too often i think the punishment is way out of line. An example is that dumbass show on animal planet. Animal police or something? Sure animal abuse is wrong, but most people that try to fight it are so misguided.

[bigbadbogie]

Capital punishment is by and large more expensive for the state than imprisoning for life. It also can't be undone if new evidence proves innocence. IMO they should have induced coma for life as the capital punishment.

I meant only for those who it has been 100% proven that they were responsible... and have no remorse.

An induced coma is probably more expensive then putting them in prison.. because they need to be on a drip to keep them alive, and they need constant power to keep their life support operational.

[ScarleTomato]

An induced coma is probably more expensive then putting them in prison.. because they need to be on a drip to keep them alive, and they need constant power to keep their life support operational.

you mean besides maintaining their grounds, feeding them, providing electricity and utilities, books television and other media?

[bigbadbogie]

They can maintain their own bloody grounds.

Feeding them bread and water is cheaper than a drip.

They don't need to use electricity 24/7.

Since when do inmates get TVs?

[ScarleTomato]

http://www.anonymousinmate.com/blog/2009/01/do-they-have-television-in-prison/

It depends on where you're at but most prisons don't feed you just bread and water, its not the best food, but its not the worst either. I'm not sure how much a drip would actually set you back but think about it. A drip supplies only the necessary nutrients, its much more efficient. You may be able to prove me wrong here, but I honestly don't see how it would be more expensive.

I would think it would cost less in security as well. A comatose prisoner is not going to revolt or try to split. You also wouldn't need near as much cell space, and none of the recreational space, weight room, cafeteria, or commons.

[mrtwosheds]

Amusing that the treatment of animals and prisoners should be discussed in the same thread. Sudden death is just fine for the innocent as long as we benefit from it...

[bigbadbogie]

http://www.anonymousinmate.com/blog/2009/01/do-they-have-television-in-prison/

It depends on where you're at but most prisons don't feed you just bread and water, its not the best food, but its not the worst either. I'm not sure how much a drip would actually set you back but think about it. A drip supplies only the necessary nutrients, its much more efficient. You may be able to prove me wrong here, but I honestly don't see how it would be more expensive.

I would think it would cost less in security as well. A comatose prisoner is not going to revolt or try to split. You also wouldn't need near as much cell space, and none of the recreational space, weight room, cafeteria, or commons.

It probably costs heaps to actually extract the nutrients. Far more than just regular food.

Security would need to be just as strong. A jailbreak would mean somebody breaking in and taking prisoners with them, since they would be unable to move themselves after being out cold for so long.

Really the only difference with that to a regular prison would be that the criminals can't try and break out on their own.

And what about the morale issues? It really does seem like a Half-Life 2 style prison system doesn't it...

[ScarleTomato]

And what about the morale issues? It really does seem like a Half-Life 2 style prison system doesn't it...

indeed but were talking about death as the alternative

drips arent nutrients extracted from foods. You just create a solution that has everything you need. IIRC you can survive almost completely off of lemon juice and honey. In fact thats actually a diet plan that you can go on for weeks, even months.

Really the only difference with that to a regular prison would be that the criminals can't try and break out on their own.

One of the more frequent reasons for security is to prevent fights among the prisoners themselves.

[mrtwosheds]

The physical effects of a coma would cripple and kill the inmate within a few years, if any were found innocent the damages lawsuit would be very expensive, as would the crimes against humanity trial that would inevitably occur.

[ScarleTomato]

true its not a perfect solution, but just outright killing them doesn't really seem all that great either. And if it did finally turn into a lawsuit, maybe it would force a rethinking of the system that could lead to truer convictions in the future. The problem with killing them, is that even if they eventually turn out to be innocent, there's usually little to no improvement for the simple reason that it cost's to do so. Dead people can't sue for wrongdoings. Their family can, but it doesn't have as much impact, and its difficult to keep a case open after the perpetrator is dead.

[mrtwosheds]

There is also the problem of Laws vs Reality too.
A few years ago a couple I had known all of my life split up, The girl got a new boyfriend, someone I knew slightly. I think it was on my 3rd visit that he threatened to kill me, my crime in his eyes was simply knowing his new girlfriend. I did not report it (no witnesses) but had to live with this idiots threat.
Now I think I would have been entirely justified if I had just killed him ,on one of the many time's we met after this, to remove the threat to myself. But it would have been murder and in some country's I would forfeit my life for that.
The point is, The Law is frequently wrong, sometimes its very wrong, and sometimes it is used to actually commit crimes.
Putting people into coma's would remove and silence them. That silence would be very useful in the wrong hands.