Just a lil something on mai mind.
I was bored, and when im bored i think about stuff.
While i was thinking i thought, (even though im a intelligent design person) "evolutionists must be smarter and work harder than creationists"
I mean think about it, when given something (related to the origin of life) A Creationist will say "God made it that way" while evolutionists will say "The ____ came from the ____ which studies show have alot of the same genetic material as ______ from the _____ ____ "
Plus evolutionists work with bigger numbers XD.
More or less, evolutionists work harder than creationists.
Thats all, just thought id get that out.
Usually when someone is trying harder and harder to get you to believe something they cannot prove, it just means they are the most persistant liar.
Quoteevolutionists work harder than creationists.
Yes. "evolutionists" have done allot of work that led to the formation of their opinions.
Creationists also did allot, little of it had anything to do with determining facts though. I often wonder about the real sources of some "beliefs". Power is often gained in simple ways, such as such as killing anyone who is prepared to disagree with you.
My personal opinion is of both. Life had to be created somehow, and maybe evolution was a planned route.
Evolution may seem far fetched at times (with its unmatched complexity), but you have to remember that it took billions of generations.
Creationists are wrong in sooo many ways. Evolutionists are right in alot of ways. But it is likely that neither is 100% correct.
I tend to agree with Nielk1's idea. Evolution is (insert diety name here)'s plan.
yeah i swing with Nielk1.
phrases like that tend to up youre faith a little more. i admit mine gets knocked a bit at times when certain scientific facts are blurted out to me.
By the way this is NOT a belief debate.
Feel free to make another thread for that.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 06, 2009, 11:20:09 PM
By the way this is NOT a belief debate.
Feel free to make another thread for that.
The thread is whatever it becomes, this is the OT!
GOD WEARS PURPLE DOTTED UNDERWEAR!
Quote from: General BlackDragon on February 07, 2009, 01:46:10 AM
GOD WEARS PURPLE DOTTED UNDERWEAR!
Too random to be Sig Material... LOL!
Funded...
Unfunded
Seems like it's simpler to assume that things just evolved than were set in motion by the invisible sky wizard. Where did the sky wizard come from? Did he evolve? Has he not evolved yet, and we are evolving into sky wizards?
I think the real problem is we don't truly understand time.
QuoteI think the real problem is we don't truly understand time.
Not much to understand about it, Motion being perceived, motion is not difficult, perception is a far more complicated subject.
this can all be answered with 3 letters.
Watch closely.
W...T...F
got it? K.
Quote from: AcneVulgaris on February 07, 2009, 05:09:51 PM
Seems like it's simpler to assume that things just evolved than were set in motion by the invisible sky wizard. Where did the sky wizard come from? Did he evolve? Has he not evolved yet, and we are evolving into sky wizards?
I think the real problem is we don't truly understand time.
Quote from: mrtwosheds on February 07, 2009, 05:48:51 PM
Not much to understand about it, Motion being perceived, motion is not difficult, perception is a far more complicated subject.
Thank giddles there are some intelligent people here.
QuoteW...T...F
:-D
With or without a creator, the universe is made of stuff, it moves.
When something capable of perception perceives movement, the result of this perception produces an effect know as time passing. The perceiver is an essential part of the equation that produces time. Rocks/photons/atoms etc do not perceive "time" they just move. Humans/plants/bacterium perceive movement and experience "time" as a consequence.
Failure to recognise this simple cause and effect relationship seems to have led many a scientist on a merry wild goose chase looking for tachions etc etc while overlooking their own obvious role in the whole experience of "time".
The question of where the universe came from, is a never ending paradox.
God created the universe, where did he come from? Where did where he came from came from? If he was around since the beginning of time when did time begin? Could something be outside of time?
Same thing with evolution. Where did the small amount of matter that became the universe come from? What was it that made it? What caused it to burst.
etc. It will never end.
It is only a paradox if you constrain events with concepts like beginning and end. By definition Infinity has no beginning or ending, it simply is. (or is-not)
QuoteCould something be outside of time?
Time is not a thing (stuff) it is a perception, 99.9r % of the universe gets on just fine without it.
No one can really imagine infinity.
It would take a very long time. take a shortcut.
That is what people do and that is why they draw the wrong conclusions.
I understand time (A little). I read a book about Time in my school library. It says that "time is a simple paradox thats is so complicated nobody can ever understand" and "The universe is its own ultimate clock, restarting every 80 billion years. It takes Time with it.".;
Don't forget, the universe is not just made of stuff. It's made of things too.
Time is time, people. It's that simple. Look at the clock, read the numbers realize that you are in fact late for your class and run.
I have never EVER been late, EVER, because of my self that is.
Quote from: Feared_1 on February 08, 2009, 12:53:39 AM
Time is time, people. It's that simple. Look at the clock, read the numbers realize that you are in fact late for your class and run.
Shouldn't it be late for SCHOOL?
I just thought I'd show you guys this:
* Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
* Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
* Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
* Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
* Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
* Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
* Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
* Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
It took one scientist to discover each of these things. They were in the Bible before those scientists dicovered them. Some of these things were discovered by christians, who didn't have to work hard to find what they were looking for because they were all in the Bible.
If anyone disagree with the above, feel free to PM me.
I have never read the bible.
But I have heard plenty of quotes from it, It is clear that most of it was originally an honest attempt to explain the world to people, who were probably very smart and knew everything there is to know about sheep and not much else. It is clear that Genesis for example describes, in very simple terms, evolution as it was understood then. In its time it was magnificent and probably the only book most people ever got to read.
Those people who knew everything there is to know about sheep and not much else, probably understood it far better than those who go round insisting that it is all still true and correct today, such people blind themselves to knowledge and attempt to blind others too, usually for their own selfish purposes.
If we thought of the universe as an entity that posessed consciousness, or was created by an entity that posessed consciousness, then the beginning of the universe could perhaps be thought of as an awakening. Being conscious, time is perceptible. Being unconscioius, time is not perceptible. Now... if God was ever unconscious, then everything would be irrelevant (including space and time) until he became aware of himself. Therefore, time did not exist before the birth of the universe.
To this end, consciousness is the most important aspect of the universe. Without consciousness, there is nothing.
Time is like distance. It is merely a measurement.
Neither time nor distance have any relevance to the universe other than how WE percieve it!
Quote from: Power Board on February 08, 2009, 04:42:35 AM
I just thought I'd show you guys this:
* Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
* Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
* Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
* Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
* Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
* Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
* Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
* Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
It took one scientist to discover each of these things. They were in the Bible before those scientists dicovered them. Some of these things were discovered by christians, who didn't have to work hard to find what they were looking for because they were all in the Bible.
If anyone disagree with the above, feel free to PM me.
I disagree. But I won't PM you. I will do the disagreeing right here.
Man wrote the bible, collecting information from a multitude of sources to do. Hell, I have seen shows where they go into detail about where some of the stuff came from. Have not personally run all over the globe to verify them, but that is more a limitation of time and finances on my part.
Thus, for anything to have been in the bible, Man already figured out the science (where science was involved) or had been telling the (largely fictional) stories.
Anyone who says that the bible was written by God, and is infallible, need only look at the original texts (which we still have access to a number of) and the translated versions thereof. They differ in meaning SIGNIFICANTLY in a number of places. And most people do their belief based on the translations. Which we can, as I just mentioned, show to be incorrect.
The bible is an ancient encyclopedia of science and fiction, written by Man. Nothing more.
Agreed, but to put it in more simplicistic terms:
The Sacred Scripture of a religion is a work written by Man to portrait it's beliefs. How accurate it is can be questioned, but those who practice the belief know what they are interpeting from this work. (hopefully)
Example of WRONG interpetations are all the false calls of the End of the World (as we know it) in the past.
Lol 2000, OMG WERE ALL GONNA DIE! *ding* oh, look, we're still here. Oh well.
The thing is, i have alot of questions in the bible. But then i read the book of Revelation (my favorite book). Although it does seem very far fetched. I dont wanna be a part of that.
THe point is, what do you have to loose? Be a christian, live forever with our Creator in peace and happiness. Dont believe in God, burn forever. (im not trying to change your opinions)
The point is, believing make a person feel good, and also gives someone to blame. If we did evolve, and there is no God, you die and nothing will happen. you probably wont matter, and even if you die, no one really cares in the grand scheme of things, your dead, you can do no more.
If you dont get what im saying, why take a big chance? Who cares if turns out to be fake, its a big risk. If there is no God, you havent lost anything, if there is, you have gained something great.
The universe is too big and there is too much room for improvement in technology for there to be a climatic finale written down in a book, even within even a billion years (unless something like a meteor, black hole, or gamma-ray burst cuts short our existence [but there's nothing divine or religious about that, just bad luck]). I think that any religion that claims a short existence of humans, or emphasizes how special we are should be questioned.
I believe God and an afterlife exists. But, I don't believe in religion that speaks of humans as the only spiritual life form (in the entire universe), or religion that doesn't believe in technology or human advancement.
To have a soul shouldn't require you to be a human. I'm sure that as technology advaces, the human body will become inadequate and people will live as more advanced beings with enhanced biology or perhaps even as machines with processors that support conscious thought (I'd imagine a quantum processor would work, some scientists believe the brain posesses quantum-mechanical characteristics, IIRC). Besides, there is also a high likelyhood that there are other sentient lifeforms in the universe. Who says that only humans exist or rather that only humans have an afterlife?
Human colonization shouldn't be limited to the Earth, either. There is an entire universe ready for colonization. Why should the human race be subject to an ultimate divine fate here on Earth? There's nothing more ultimate than the cold death of the entire universe!
Quotewhat do you have to loose?
Erm, the intelligence I was born with, all the fun of observing the universe at work and trying to figure out what's really going on, allot of pointless superstitious fear, my right to form my own opinions on what is right and wrong, my own self respect, my own good judgement, Rationality, morality and lying in bed on Sunday mornings.
You would do better to ask what your religion has taken from you.
Quotewhy take a big chance?
I don't see it as a big chance, at the age of 4 I was able to see right through the nonsense Christian's were trying to teach me, it was so obviously wrong and stupid, since then I have sought my own "spiritual" knowledge, this is the only way to reach a true understanding. That understanding has revealed the lies behind many religions, and yes they are lies, deliberate and calculated to hide the truth of ourselves (and our "gods"), because knowledge is power and all religions really seek is power over people, to get that, they must hide the truth behind ignorance, nonsense, rhetoric and of course, violence.
I couldn't agree more 2sheds.
Agreed. I've found more success by meditating and maintaining a personal relationship with God than following a "How To..." book.
I also agree.
I came to that myself.
The point is, you gotta do it on your own.
A few good links:
http://www.lawhern.org/Religion.htm
http://www.lawhern.org/Way_Less_Traveled.html
- A couple of articles about the shortcomings of several major religions, as well as other neat tidibts about spiritualality.
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/
- For those who insist on being part of a church, but one that isn't riddled in a religion of blind faith. The church of reality practices "Philosophical realism," which will probably help those who are interested in a rational view of the meaning of life.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 06, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
More or less, evolutionists work harder than creationists.
In my experience, getting to the truth is often very hard work, vs. our natural human inclinations to simplify our perceptions of the world.
I'm not even trying to say that evolutionists are actually getting to the truth, just that getting to the truth of the deeper mysteries IS often very hard work.
One thing that humans in general excel at is being wrong, scientists and spiritualists alike. History really bears that out.
We all should believe what we feel, but we'll likely never get to the bottom of who is right (unless angels descend from the heavens, or similar shocking events). That's why I never like to argue about it, although polite discussion is fine.
The reason humans are often wrong, is because we make assumptions based on a bunch of facts we are given, and the assumptions are always made in a way that will personally help us with whatever our underlying problem is, be it fear of death, fear of being wrong... etc.
Quote from: General BlackDragon on February 08, 2009, 05:48:56 PM
Lol 2000, OMG WERE ALL GONNA DIE! *ding* oh, look, we're still here. Oh well.
That's because they still have Jesus locked up in Guantanamo. When he gets loose, look out!
Uh you cant keep Jesus in a prison, unless there is a reason he should stay in there.
Maybe he's being water boarded for our sins.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 11, 2009, 01:11:39 AM
Uh you cant keep Jesus in a prison, unless that is he wants to be in there.
Then he must have wanted to be beaten and crucified. I don't think he did, because when he was on the cross he looked up to the sky and asked his father why he'd forsaken him.
You know, when I saw the Matrix I left the theater and looked up in the sky and thought, "oh man, that could actually be close".
Quote from: Axeminister on February 11, 2009, 09:17:10 PM
Then he must have wanted to be beaten and crucified. I don't think he did, because when he was on the cross he looked up to the sky and asked his father why he'd forsaken him.
You know, when I saw the Matrix I left the theater and looked up in the sky and thought, "oh man, that could actually be close".
Reworded it, i didnt exactly mean that.
And i do agree with you, he did ask his Father if he wanted, to let him not go through the crucifixion
The idea that there must have been a beginning only shows the limits of our minds. That is, if someone says "There must have been a beginning to all things..." the correct answer is "Who says so???". It's a human reaction to exposure to something we can't possibly understand any more than the amoeba living in your gut can understand the universe that is your body.
We scoff at the idea of a perpetual motion machine, while living inside of one...
My own personal view is that the Universe is alive, and I'm the amoeba living in it's stomach. I have further discovered that there's no such thing as coincidence, meaning that I'm just a hair shy of believing in preordained fates for all things despite what's carved into the top of my picnic table.
I've also found that Karma is real, you should trust me on this, so live your lives such that you won't come back as a cockroach in your next incarnation, if you get one... Seriously, treat the universe as if it were watching you and reacting to what you do... because it is.
And God doesn't like it when we talk about her panties...
:evil:
-Av-
Causality goes to hell in a quantum existence.
@Av
The first part was good, then it kinda drifted out...
Amoeba can't think, build telescopes or calculate things. That is the difference.
Humans are not perpetual motion machines. We only last until we are broken or wear out like any other machine.
There is such thing as coincidence.
The reason that good or bad deeds reward or harm you is because people will like or dislike you for them... not because of Karma.
And God might like it when we talk about her panties... we can't exactly tell. :lol:
I just thought I'd let you guys know, God told the people who wrote the Bible what to write. What you guys think is that the Bible was made by a group of scientists who had nothing to do with their lives.
Lets look at 2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed
As I said before, God inspires the people who wrote the 66 books. Many of the people who wrote the Bible would have never knew eack other.
QuoteAmoeba can't think, build telescopes or calculate things.
Amoeba/bacteria don't need to think (neither do some people, apparently) don't have eyes to look though a telescope, but do calculate things, such as when to stop dividing or produce toxic defence/offence substances. small does not equate to simple, in many respects they are some of the most highly evolved organisms on this planet.
Quote from: Avatar on February 13, 2009, 01:53:13 AM
The idea that there must have been a beginning only shows the limits of our minds. That is, if someone says "There must have been a beginning to all things..." the correct answer is "Who says so???". It's a human reaction to exposure to something we can't possibly understand any more than the amoeba living in your gut can understand the universe that is your body.
We scoff at the idea of a perpetual motion machine, while living inside of one...
My own personal view is that the Universe is alive, and I'm the amoeba living in it's stomach. I have further discovered that there's no such thing as coincidence, meaning that I'm just a hair shy of believing in preordained fates for all things despite what's carved into the top of my picnic table.
I've also found that Karma is real, you should trust me on this, so live your lives such that you won't come back as a cockroach in your next incarnation, if you get one... Seriously, treat the universe as if it were watching you and reacting to what you do... because it is.
And God doesn't like it when we talk about her panties...
:evil:
-Av-
God doesnt actually have a gender. But i guess people think of him better as a he than a she. Unless you watched that American Dad episode.
@Bogie Thats true but as sheds said, they do calculate things, sure they are just instinct but they still have brains.
Quote from: Power Board on February 13, 2009, 08:46:24 AM
I just thought I'd let you guys know, God told the people who wrote the Bible what to write. What you guys think is that the Bible was made by a group of scientists who had nothing to do with their lives.
Lets look at 2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed
As I said before, God inspires the people who wrote the 66 books. Many of the people who wrote the Bible would have never knew eack other.
Using the Bible to "prove" that
god wrote or heavily influenced the Bible is just stupid.
Here, lets play that game.
God told me to write this post, and everything in it.
Because my post says that
god told me to write it, he did.
By your logic, because my post says so, it must be true.
Back to REAL logic and history, many of the books of the FULL Bible were destroyed, because royalty did not like what was in them. They presented the "wrong image" and all that. And the various parts of the Bible were written at different times, by different people, many of which are believed to have been collecting information from all over by word of mouth before putting it down in the books they were writing. Most of them probably weren't even going to become "part" of the Bible.
Now then, unless you can come up with a way to prove that "
God" wrote or heavily influenced the Bible that does not loop back to "the Bible says so" I forbid you from arguing that here. You have now said it once, you do not need to repeat it.
Quote from: CmptrWz on February 13, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Using the Bible to "prove" that god wrote or heavily influenced the Bible is just stupid.
Here, lets play that game. God told me to write this post, and everything in it.
Because my post says that god told me to write it, he did.
By your logic, because my post says so, it must be true.
Back to REAL logic and history, many of the books of the FULL Bible were destroyed, because royalty did not like what was in them. They presented the "wrong image" and all that. And the various parts of the Bible were written at different times, by different people, many of which are believed to have been collecting information from all over by word of mouth before putting it down in the books they were writing. Most of them probably weren't even going to become "part" of the Bible.
Now then, unless you can come up with a way to prove that "God" wrote or heavily influenced the Bible that does not loop back to "the Bible says so" I forbid you from arguing that here. You have now said it once, you do not need to repeat it.
True it might have all been word of mouth, but remember were talking about GOD here, not humans. GOD could have had what the people told the writers be true. Anything a human does could have been done because God wants it done.
You gotta remember, God can do anything. Or in your case, atleast a god.
Hey, unless you can prove that beings of significantly higher powers exist that are not just using technology to pretend to have higher powers I have to ascribe any tales of them doing so to the following:
1 - Fantasy stories that groups of people have decided are reality, against all definitions of sanity
2 - Aliens pretending to be gods (ala Stargate)
3 - Our future selves time-traveling, creating a causality loop beyond our understanding
4 - Some combination of the above
My money is on 1, for the record.
Gotta love a good old scientific/philosophical debate. :D
I'm starting to think that if there is a supreme being, he just set this all in motion just to see what will happen.
I started a country song about it...the chourus goes:
'cuz we're all just God's sea monkeys
inside his plastic bowl
and the bottom's gettin' funky
and the water's gettin' low
Quote from: CmptrWz on February 13, 2009, 04:37:21 PM
Hey, unless you can prove that beings of significantly higher powers exist that are not just using technology to pretend to have higher powers I have to ascribe any tales of them doing so to the following:
1 - Fantasy stories that groups of people have decided are reality, against all definitions of sanity
2 - Aliens pretending to be gods (ala Stargate)
3 - Our future selves time-traveling, creating a causality loop beyond our understanding
4 - Some combination of the above
My money is on 1, for the record.
What kind of proof do you have they DON'T exist? If so whats your belief on the beginning of the universe.
Plus i also hate when people call evolution a proven fact. Same thing with creationism. Gravity is a fact. The sun is our source of energy is a fact. The universe is really big, thats a fact. Where the world came from, is not a fact.
I'm surprised noone is mentioning Darwin's birthday yesterday. The British had like the biggest party day for anyone ever over there. I would like to commend him because he represents a thinking man in a time when blind faith was the norm. Thinking outside the box has gotten us much farther in technology than we would have otherwise.
AcneVulgaris made me laugh with his new song. lol
I have found that attempting to discuss such issues, with people who use the self rationalising but illogical arguments like the one above, is usually an entirely pointless exercise.
The exclusive argument has evolved to protect itself from intrusion by other concepts. It is an argument that has evolved in the group human consciousness over a very long period of time, It is quite immune to most forms of logic and rationality. It survives, parasite like, in the minds of its hosts, spreading down the generations, usually in a passive state until reality challenges it and forces its illogicality out into the open. Then it fights back using its hosts as its weapon. They start wars, commit acts of terrorism, murder, oppress free thought and the freedoms of their people. The exclusive argument justifies it all to its hosts, as we have seen in the most recent outbreak of fanaticism.
There are no fully effective cures for a society infected with an exclusive argument. Liberal doses of freedom and scientific education have been shown to reduce infections for periods of time, but reinfection frequently occurs when the freedom and knowledge support systems become weakened or the society allows the argument to infect its governmental structures.
Quote from: Axeminister on February 13, 2009, 06:04:42 PM
Thinking outside the box has gotten us much farther in technology than we would have otherwise.
Technology YES, finding out where the universe began, no.
And besides evolution only explains where we came from, not where the universe came from.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 13, 2009, 05:52:32 PM
What kind of proof do you have they DON'T exist? If so whats your belief on the beginning of the universe.
I have no proof that they don't exist. I have no proof that they do.
Absence of proof against does not imply proof of, and absence of proof of does not imply proof against.
However, as the only decent "proof" anyone can provide me of the existence of a supreme being, that is not also considered "proof" of other things entirely, is that various religious texts supposedly influenced or directly written by said being say that said being exists and that he wrote said texts, I am inclined to believe that this "proof" is man-made fiction, and thus may be dismissed as fantasies of ancient people.
Thus, I cannot provide proof either way. I can argue likelihoods, though.
Is it likely that there is a single, solitary supreme being that is all powerful, cares about us only if we believe in him, punishes those that do not believe in him by letting them be taken by someone who previously betrayed him, and yet only allows the word of others who cannot have experienced any of it as his only message actually exists?
Based on the physical evidence at our disposal, probably not. By the very nature of the story, there is no evidence to be had. The description is fairly nonsensical as well, making it less believable.
Is it likely that said supreme being had a son, who died, came back, and is willing to take on all of our "sins" so that we can escape eternal torture?
Based on the physical evidence at our disposal, probably not. The only evidence we have are ancient items that have no guaranteed connection with anyone, and the stories about this miracle individual drop most of his life into the void, and most of it can't be easily proven. That which people claim HAS proven it has been shown to be easily faked with period technology and knowledge, to the point where some of it is more likely to be fake than real.
Is it likely that the universe, or this incarnation of the universe, began in a giant explosion an insanely high number of years ago?
Based on the physical evidence at our disposal, fairly.
Is it likely that said explosion was the work of a being beyond our comprehension?
Based on the physical evidence at our disposal, we can't tell. All of our physical evidence originates from the explosion.
The way I see it, if there is a supreme power in charge of the universe, they made one hell of a large place from our point of view. And yet, we are insignificant specks inside of it. Thus, I think it is much more likely that if said being does exist, they don't even know we are here.
I mean, lets face it. We are a tiny speck in a galaxy that is itself a tiny speck in the universe. Physical evidence shows that life on this planet has existed for an insignificant time in the timeline of the universe. If there IS a single person behind the creation of the entire universe I am willing to bet that they could do their equivalent of blinking and we have existed for less time then it takes their equivalent of an eyelid to start moving, let alone have them finish the blink.
And that is assuming that they didn't get bored with the universe who knows how long ago and moved on.
Quote from: CmptrWz on February 13, 2009, 08:12:37 PMAnd that is assuming that they didn't get bored with the universe who knows how long ago and moved on.
That's a very "human" way of going about it... how about we peek at the "other side"?
Response (cause i dont want to reply)
First of all, he loves ALL of us, no matter what even you, Osama bin laden, even George Bush. Id go into details, but i dont think you care.
Second of all, where did that explosion come from? Your seriously saying that the WHOLE universe, of which we cant even fathom how big it is, was once a tiny spec, and for unknown reasons, exploded into the universe?
That makes less sense.
Think about how complex the universe is, how complex a single cell is. (even though this has been brought up before) It simply does not make sense.
Your stating that more or less the universe just "happened to come into existence"
Sure hope you dont hate me cause of this, just want a healthy debate.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 13, 2009, 08:38:46 PM
Think about how complex the universe is, how complex a single cell is. (even though this has been brought up before) It simply does not make sense.
Your stating that more or less the universe just "happened to come into existence"
A being that could design such complex things must be more complex than those things. It seems more likely that if something just popped into existence, it would be the less complex of the two.
QuoteSecond of all, where did that explosion come from? Your seriously saying that the WHOLE universe, of which we cant even fathom how big it is, was once a tiny spec, and for unknown reasons, exploded into the universe?
A fairly unlikely theory, proposed by people who sought a beginning, an understandable mistake.
The source of The Very Big Explosion can be deduced by a simple logical process, It was caused by two objects colliding whose relative velocity's/masses were VERY different.
A theory that only causes more questions to be asked, how annoying for those seekers of finity.
The beginning of time wasn't with the big bang. The universe has been exploding an imploding for god knows how long. Some scientists have deduced through quantum mechanics and string theory (and possibly other theories) that the universe goes through periods of expansion and contraction in which each cycle lasts about 300 billion years.
The universe "explodes" from an infinitely small point, and expands out into a relatively sparse state. Then, instead of a cold death happening, the universe begins collapsing back in on itself, speeding up as it goes along. The end result is that everything in the universe condenses back into another infinitely small point and most information from the universe's previous state is lost. Thus implying the beginning of time would be the big bang. Considering the law of conservation of energy, this process is timeless.
So by this, there is no beginning and no end to the universe, just a cycle of rebirth.
You are assuming the universe exists at all.
What if it is not really there? What if the universe is just an empty void which we as foolish humans have decided needs to be a certain size and needs to have begun at some point in time?
Sure, why not? Why not just imagine 72 virgins right here, right now :evil:!
Or maybe I want to be alone *shrinks universe down to 5 feet x 5 feet x 10 feet*.
Hmmm, this doesn't seem to be working... Maybe humans aren't the masters of a non-existent universe after all?
Quote from: Angstromicus on February 13, 2009, 10:30:57 PM
So by this, there is no beginning and no end to the universe, just a cycle of rebirth.
So when did this cycle begin hm?
There is no cycle. Therefore it didn't begin at all.
QuoteSo when did this cycle begin hm?
Only finite things have beginnings and ends, if the love of your GOD is infinite, then it must be contained in an infinite universe, that has no beginning or end.
Consider this too, humanity will have appeared (evolved or created) and vanished again before our little galaxy has even revolved once, none of these fine theory's will ever be proven by us.
Quote from: mrtwosheds on February 14, 2009, 04:04:39 AM
Only finite things have beginnings and ends
Infinite or DEfinite?
Anyway, just noticed, is EVERYBODY here (except me) a Christian? zomfgbbqroflolzord!
I'm not...I'm a heathen.
I've moved away from Christianity for the most part. I don't practice any particular religion, I mainly go by what I observe.
1) Most near death experiences seem to have a tunnel effect with a white light at the end.
2) The experiences I've had in my meditation sessions.
3) Conclusions and theories arrived at through thourough scientific testing.
Quote from: Angstromicus on February 14, 2009, 05:31:49 AM
1) Most near death experiences seem to have a tunnel effect with a white light at the end.
...Which is probably where the entire religious idea for that came from originally.
QuoteAnyway, just noticed, is EVERYBODY here (except me) a Christian? zomfgbbqroflolzord!
Born and raised in a country that is (allegedly :-D) Christian, the UK. (atheists actually outnumber the Christians)
Not instructed by parents, educational systems brainwashing attempts failed utterly, I'm pleased to say.
I am not a Christian. I have no religion, I find the entire concept of religions, as proscribed systems of what to believe, offensive.
Freedom of thought, is the
only freedom we have that cannot be taken away (without serious violence or death) Religions by insisting on their "truths" attempt to remove that, and frequently succeed.
None of this means that I have no concept of... um (lack of words in English language uncontaminated by "Religious" meanings) "spirituality"
I have allot more of it than most people do, which is why I find the Religions so offensive, they claim to open eyes while trying to permanently close them. The argument over evolution is a perfect example of this.
Happy to be described as a Heathen! :-D
SOMEbody define "Heathen"?!
So many profound words... I need to spend less time on BZU and go to Remedial more!
EDIT: A Guess; again: Heathen = Somebody who doesn't believe in religions and so doesn't follow any?!?! :?
Somebody from the heath. (not in Our church)
*See Crusades of the Medieval Era and the Colonial Era for more examples of the use. (IE: Judaism, Islam & Native American belief followers in the eyes of the Christian Churches)
I seriously don't think of myself as a christian, mostly because that term is SO near-sighted that it is utter bull....
EVERY, and i mean EVERY religion in this world expresses SOME FORM of similar belief that everyone can identify at first look. Islam, Judaism and all denominations of Followers of the Deemed Savior (christians people :P) SHARE the same higher being (God) but are too blinded to consider that a good enough point in common intrest.
SO, i consider myself an observer of the (pretty much) "universal" Higher Being. Basically, waiting for the next load of crap to hit the fryer and push me away.
Quote from: Arbystrider on February 14, 2009, 04:39:04 AM
Infinite or DEfinite?
Anyway, just noticed, is EVERYBODY here (except me) a Christian? zomfgbbqroflolzord!
Um, yeah, selfish much?
Christianity VS Islam = 1.2 vs 1.3.
No comparison, both religions are crap...
Please don't show me your "racist" sides... You're Heathens so you don't get involved.
Anyway 1.2 is worse. 1.2 = a load of noobs.
And just so you know, I didn't know Westerners would be so *Don't know what the word is!!!*
Racist?
WTH does that have to do with anything?
Quote from: Arbystrider on February 15, 2009, 12:40:31 AM
And just so you know, I didn't know Westerners would be so *Don't know what the word is!!!*
What?
QuotePlease don't show me your "racist" sides...
I will agree not to use disparaging remarks about Religions on the same day they agree not to do so to everyone else.
Never had a bad word to say about Budhist's though :-)
Quote*Don't know what the word is!!!*
Argumentative?
The life blood of a democracy!
This is one of the times I wish I had an electronic dictionary to find all those profound words...
Google: Learn to use it. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dictionary&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=)
Quote from: mrtwosheds on February 15, 2009, 01:50:00 AM
I will agree not to use disparaging remarks about Religions on the same day they agree not to do so to everyone else.
Everyone has their own opinions and their own ways of going about it. Because of this, what you're asking for isn't going to happen unless people open their minds a little bit and have a look at both sides.
Which is also never going to happen.
Both sides are fanatically convinced that they are correct... and always will be.
It's obviously too late for some people. Closed-minded religions like christianity have scared people into believing that their religion is the only possible, and only divine religion in existence. It's too late for them, I can only hope for a reincarnation where they are subject to a more open minded religion or philosophy, because therein lies true freedom, and therein lies salvation.
I'm a Christian and I don't consider myself to be "close-minded" (and "too late" sounds bad).
This is just one of those things that will go on and on and on and will never stop. It's like the 1.2-1.3 battle, only it's tighter and even more defensive, as difficult as it is to imagine.
The only thing conversations like this bring us is insults and offenses. Nothing less.
And viewpoints.
Quote from: Feared_1 on February 15, 2009, 06:43:29 AM
This is just one of those things that will go on and on and on and will never stop. It's like the 1.2-1.3 battle, only it's tighter and even more defensive, as difficult as it is to imagine.
Yeah. I think it may be a little older too. :-P
Quote from: Angstromicus on February 15, 2009, 04:50:00 AM
that their religion is the only possible, and only divine religion in existence.
There can only be one correct religion, so shouldnt you be like that?
When there is an overwhelming abundance of evidence that your Religion is not actually correct at all, such behaviour could only be described as willful ignorance. A "sin" in my opinion.
Quote from: bigbadbogie on February 15, 2009, 07:52:47 AM
And viewpoints.
Yeah. I think it may be a little older too. :-P
Sadly i think most people would see 1.2 as creationism, and 1.3 as evolution...
Look at all the avatars and tell me we're part of an "evolution". Maybe at one time, but now we're de-evolutioning. lol
Talking about mine right?
Lawlsauce
I guess so... :-o
Try SW for a change.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on February 06, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
Plus evolutionists work with bigger numbers XD.
depends, does god is infinite count as a number?
Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 13, 2009, 02:19:35 AM
depends, does god is infinite count as a number?
Talking about dates.
Maybe, but hes not a number, he has infinite power.
Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 15, 2009, 10:57:00 PM
Talking about dates.
Maybe, but hes not a number, he has infinite power.
Actually, that's an interesting point -- In the old Christian/Greek thought world, God was "perfect" and therefore DID have infinite power. All-powerful, all-knowing, omniscient. However, modern Catholicism at least acknowledges that there are troubles with an omniscient, all-powerful, and just God.
What modern theology (Karl Raner) says is that essentially we don't like to think in terms of vague, up-in-the-clouds ideas anymore like the Greeks did, so let's rethink how we look at God and Christ using our down-to-earth, interpersonal terms.