Bz2 lifework/deeper meanings?

[Risa]

quote from Nathans web site:

"A special note: one of the bugs fixed is the infinite flying bug present in BZ2 1.0 - 1.2. This was removed because it is considered to be a bug by those of us who worked on BZ2 from the beginning. It is not due to complaints from "newbies" or the like. Certain people certainly feel strongly about this. Fine. Your feelings are not an argument. Whining about this will not change anything-- we've heard such complaints for years, and your comments will only serve to harden our resolve in this. If you still think you must comment, see here."


I was just wondering, has bz2 a special meaning, is it supposed to give a message out to the world? Or is it a 'work of my life', that everything has to be perfect?

I get the feeling that the people who worked on the patch cared too much about the original intention (deeper meanings?) of the game, rather than caring about the gaming experiance..

If you teach a newer player how to fly, or hover, he'll love you for the rest of his gaming career (unless you really mess up).. They like it, the vets like it, the intermediates like it, the only ones who dont , are people who make up 5% of the actual gaming community (not including several exceptions from the above named groups).

Is this (bz2) about the fun of the (hardcore) players, or the fun of people who play far less/not??

you tell me


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edit:

btw, dont get me wrong, it's really cool that you guys do all this, I'ts not like I think you all did a bad thing... I mean I'll be up for a game of 1.3 whenever you invite me, but I'm just curious about who it's made for, players or none-players..

[appel]

Taboo  

[Avatar]

*sigh*

It's probably impossible to give an explanation or reason that will make the hurt go away for some people, but I keep trying...

Thanks for a civil post, btw, it's appreciated.



There are a few other 'basics' for BZ2 that were NOT open to change.  The biggest of these for me was the Satellite View.  Why not make it just like an RTS game would be, to help pull in the RTS players as Commanders?   Why this funky 'only see what's targeted' stuff?  It's not even true Fog of War...

Nope.  Wil was adamant about how it should work, so it's not a thing we can/should change with 1.3 even though it wouldn't have taken much to do.

See?  Some parts of the game are a certain way to give the game it's 'flavor'.  'Infinite Hovering' was never an intended use of the Tanks.  Mods can give you it back (pretty much) if it's something you absolutely can't live without, but it's not part of the basics of the game and never was intended to be...

-Av-

[MowerMan]

Well Avatar, terrain damage was NEVER intended to be in the game, but now it magically appears in 1.3, and it's a bad thing for so many reasons.  Flying was there from day one, even in the BZ2 Demo.  Flying is fun, and should have never been removed, and is simply NOT a physics bug.

At least flying didn't render many units useless like skiing did in Tribes, but the Tribes devs didn't want to remove something that was never intended, because the community liked it.

[Slaor]

Wil was adamant about how it should work, so it's not a thing we can/should change with 1.3 even though it wouldn't have taken much to do.

[2 cents] IMHO it's things like this that made (even just SP) BZ2 less accessible to a lot of potential players, even BZ1 players. Loss of "Hunt" command is another one (though that one is back for modders now, hooray for 1.3). "Features" like this do nought for the game except add unneeded micromanagement when you should be building and fighting. Team strat and MPI are obviously different beasts but if you've got to command and thug at the same time, on a decent sized map things can get very tricky and require player to do stuff (like driving a few km back to base to tell a unit to do its job) that isn't "fun".

Units should be able to patrol if not actually hunt - they presumably have trained and qualified (if not top-gun) pilots driving them and all units have radar maps.

Service trucks should heal whatever is damaged, that's their reason for being there.

Satellites should be able to see the whole battlefield unless jammed, else why go to the trouble of launching one. BZ1 system was much better - access sat view from your tank but stand out on radar like dog balls as a consequence. BZ2 system is a step backwards.

It's near impossible to look after your base when you are off leading an assault force - you just gotta build lotsa GT's and turrets and hope they can hold till you get back, or else get a builder out to put up a relay at your staging point. At least now in 1.3 u can ferry them out on a tug...

It always seemed to me that since in BZ2 it is MUCH more difficult to control all your forces than in a traditional RTS, it should be easier to get a holistic view of the battle and your units should be smarter and more self motivated to compensate. Not so much that they do your job for you, just enough that you don't eg: have to tell a service truck to heal that burning building it's idly sitiing next to, or so that a group of tanks can go patrol without you having to hold their hands constantly, or be able to at least be told to go get themselves fixed at nearest service when they are red-lined.

[/2 cents]

We still love it tho Luckily, like Av I'm a modder - BZ2 can become what I choose to make it, and 1.3 helps lots with that aspect, even if you aren't a modder. Don't dismiss it just cos it fixes a few lame, easily  exploitable bugs, there's so much more to BZ2 than scout flying...

[Slaor]

"Flying is fun, and should have never been removed, and is simply NOT a physics bug."

Well see that's one of those little personal prefernces things Mower. If you ask eg: Ken and Nathan and Wil (among others) flying is lame, should never have been there in the first place and IS a physics bug. I'll probably play a lot more MP now it's gone - not that I can't do it, just that I'm not into exploiting bugs in order to win.

It's always surprised me that in such a uniquely immersive and rich game (despite its flaws) that is based on action and command and strategy, so many of you "vets" seem to cherish such a lame ass tactic as hovering over a base, chaingunning it to death with total impunity. It's like you are being deprived of your only way of winning or something.

If scouts are really sluggish now that probably needs looking at - but reversing into the sky ass first so u can kill anything below you is a weird way to float your boat, and a waste of the potential of BZ2.

[MowerMan]

It is not a physics bug, the physics are correct according to the inverse square law.  Learn some Physics Slaor.

Service trucks should not, and were never meant to automonously heal a whole base.  I think it is appropriate for them to automously heal combat units (expecially if they are told to follow them).

I have talked to George, Ken, wiL, Brad and Nathan on many aspects of this game (played BZ/BZ2 with every one of them too).  Yes they have opinions, and they are not gods.

Hover bombing bases is lame, not very effective, and easily countered.  You paint with a broad brush with you LAME characterizations.

[Slaor]

Ah here we go again.

The inverse square law implies that scouts should be able to reverse into the sky thrusters first?? Yeah OK.

Service trucks, whatever, it's an opinion that no-one is requiring you to share - and from prior experience you should know that I scarcely give a rats whether you happen to agree or not. If you don't like competent service trucks probly best to skip Epic.

I've talked to Ken et al also Mower, and yes they aren't gods. But they did design the game so I guess their opinions count more as regards what is a bug and what ain't.

Hover bombing bases is lame, not very effective, and easily countered. So why do you all bitch so much that such a lame, ineffective and easily countered bug is removed? Work is being done to make the scout more manouverable for you all, so what's the problem?

[Red Devil]

Risa, there is no deeper meaning implied or intended.  All it means is that aircraft fly, hovercraft do not. Sure, hovercraft can catch some air, but they are not meant to hover like a helicopter.  It is a bug which produced a very lame tactic which ruined the game for many and is now being removed, as well it should be.

As for the satellite view, try using the Scout's radar to reveal enemy units. Use Scouts like they were intended and place them around the map to use their enhanced radar to reveal enemy units in satellite view. I do it all the time and it works like a charm.  I can see the entire enemy base from across the map.

As for seeing the base while you are away, I just select the Recycler or Factory and swivel.  Place the Rec and Factory apart so that you can see the entire base.  Also, I build Relay Bunkers near my pools so i can just hop in and update my base.

As for micomanaging the base, hand off command to someone who is in base so they can repair/build things.  Also, there are new Service Trucks/Healers in the new Recs/Mats which will heal anything if you choose to make them.

[Slaor]

Good points all Red - guess I just like dogfighting more than unit micromanagement. Plus my current little side project makes moving builders and driving back to base all the time both a bit more involved, so I'm always looking at ways to compensate. 1.3 gives me a few options to this end, I love it so far.

[Red Devil]

Oh my goodness, I royally suck at dogfighting. Probably why i try to spend so much time in base.  :-}

Hey, have you guys tried the new DM with Bots and the sliding damage multiplyer yet?  Set it at 10% and you can practice all day.  (probably what I should do more of in the future).

[MowerMan]

Yes the inverse square law does indeed imply that Slaor, if the hovering effect is a generated field, which there is every indication that it is.  The inverse square law applies to fields.  You know the moon stays in the Earth's orbit by this little thing called gravititional field, and the moon is much farther than 30m away.

Just because I think hover bombing is not very effective or easily countered, doesn't mean that flying is fun or good for other purposes (like escape).  Good pilots of fighter jets can make them do things that they were not specifically designed to do.

Hate to clue you in Slaor, but I was in on the development of BZ2 long before Nathan was.  Ask Avatar who the first person he ever even hear describe Team Strategy, or who the guy was who was had the concept of Team Strategy way back in the original BZ (even was developing a map with AV called Team Fortress).  So don't start name-dropping with me.

I can live without infinite flying in BZ2, but it's a programmers preference, not a physics bug.

[NukeDaddy]

It is not a physics bug, the physics are correct according to the inverse square law.  Learn some Physics Slaor.

That implies a very weak gravitational field and overdesigned reverse thrusters.  Based on the graphics and the game's backstory, I don't think you can start assuming that the reverse thrusters are anything but rockets, not field effect devices.  It just doesn't fit in with the whole paradigm.  If the field generators are so great, what the heck are the jump jets for?

You want to fly, play Starfleet.

[MowerMan]

What kind of blather is that?  The reverse/strafe/forward thrusters are all the same technology.

When comparing a planetary mass to the mass of a craft, the field strength would be the same at 30m or 1000m.

Someone needs to learn some math too.

I don't play Starfleet (although I may give it a try once the patch if fully released).

[CmptrWz]

Certain things work much better when pushing against a solid mass(aka, the ground) or a near solid mass(aka, water). Gas doesn't always work for some of this stuff. Take a standard hovercraft, it will go over land and sea, but it can't drive off a cliff and continue to operate.