1.3 Avenger Bug (Moderate)

[BZZERKER]

Where is ZA when you need him? ZA, If you read this, send him some odf's that will not have any mercy on his sorry as*.

You really have no clue as to just how brutal tha AI can be Wing. If you want just a hint, play TV's and Zeeder's "The Long Journey" MPI for v1.2. I feel the AI on that map will give you a better idea of what they are capable of.

[Wingflier]

lol, ai can be made much more powerful.
you dont even see that your a hippocrit.  you said

Every AI controlled ship SHOULD be as good as every human controlled ship. Why shouldn't it be? You pay the same amount for both...

but immeadiately after you said

Bots will never Be As Good As Humans

How am I being hippocritical???

Think about what I said above.

AI controlled ship SHOULD be as good as every human controlled ship.

Then later I said Bots will never be as Good As Humans!!!

How is this contradictory?

I'm sorry I don't want to attack you...but come on!

I can want bots to be as good as a human controlled ship but still KNOW that it is NOT possible!

Is this hard to understand??

Geeze.

Anyways.

BZZERKER...I will have to see it to believe it.
But I think we both know it's not possible.

Adam

[Dirty Rooster]

This is a computer game.
AI-controlled ships ('bots') can be made as
good as the programmers wanted. From dumb to superhuman.
Without altering BZII, they can be made far more
effective than in stock 1.2 or 1.3 using simple .odf changes.
With code changes they can be made to almost never miss,
dodge human shots, strafe quickly and pseudorandomly, etc.

Perhaps what wingflier is suggesting is that AI ships cannot
be made to behave the SAME as human ships.

Or perhaps he is saying they can't be as good, which is
complete bollocks. They can be made to outmatch any human,
it just isn't fun dying 1v1 all the time.

Maybe what he saw was DM shadower avengers on level 3
popping off missiles quickly (maybe DM image signature is bigger
than strat) , then was disappointed that lower level AI ships produced
in a strat were slower to lock on.
As far as I remember, AI ships made in a strat start at level 0 ...
is it higher in 1.3 or just that the alterations in code allow them
to aim much better?

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

1. wing try ZTV, a 1.2 MP mission by TV and zeeder, ill send you a link if needed, mainly focus on the scouts + warriors using both weapons
2. ZA mods, try to fight vs 1 scout and I bet you'll die easily and then try vsing 3 scouts
now, just thinking about mixing both of their qualties, ZA accuracy + TV & zeeder warp lag bounce and using both weapons and specials


your basicly changing your opnion with each post

first you wanted AI to be the best it can be - and you have no idea how good they can be [see above if you wanna see just a small part of it]
and then you say human will still be better, but they wont if you make the AI the best it can be


human add the most fun to the game, what yoyu want, and I'll use Av words, a chess-like game, but then you only need a human to watch and command the AI, not to partipcate because they will probably do worse and better leaving AI pilot in them
the whole point of multiplayer is human vs human, not human vs AI
human controling ships will be alot better since then you have to balance the teams, thugs can have bad days and good days --> good actions or bad ones + lucky or just greedy action which AI wont have, but the AI will still be better, sometime you can see someone chasing someone else and he can kill him or just die, a human desicion - AI vs AI will never have that, so just leave it human vs human
I could go on for ages and ages why AI should be left dumb but since you still have no idea how good the AI can be and basicly not sure what you want yourself theres no point going on about it for now


oo added in an edit:

It's an easy solution, make all the AI as good as you can possibly make them...because....like I said above, you pay the same scrap for both...why should humans be extremely more effective than the AI??

because maximum you can get 4 humans
+ humans will have a greater motivation to be better + they will become better faster instead of fighting AI
just come and watch the difrence of skill levels in some 1.2 vet games
its truely amazing

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

and now time for being a lil extreme sarcastic

how come humans can snipe and AI not? how about whenever you kill a unit a pilot will jump out and snipe you - humans can do it! why not AI?
and AI should be the best it can be - it only makes sense! if humans can snipe and actualy hit from time to time why should'nt the AI be able to do it? and since humans can train and have perfact aim AI should have perfact aim too!

[BZZERKER]

and now time for being a lil extreme sarcastic

how come humans can snipe and AI not? how about whenever you kill a unit a pilot will jump out and snipe you - humans can do it! why not AI?
and AI should be the best it can be - it only makes sense! if humans can snipe and actualy hit from time to time why should'nt the AI be able to do it? and since humans can train and have perfact aim AI should have perfact aim too!

Careful what you wish for PF.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

in ZTV if you go to the AI base they snipe you, I was sarcastic about it though  

[BZZERKER]

I was referring to some stuff RD has been cooking up that you haven't seen yet.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

worse then zeederians pilots shooting with their sniper all over?  

[BZZERKER]

Not sure if RD would want me to say more than I already have so I'll leave it at that.

[APCs r evil]

how come humans can snipe and AI not?

Because the AI aims at the hp_com no the hp_eyepoint.

Oh wait, that was a rhetorical question.

[Spawn]

give zst rats sniper and youll see how much that matters apc.
earlier in dunecommand the ai pilots would snipe you, but due to a dll bug when you would be sniped you would still be in the ship, only watching!!

wing, thats the problem with hyppocrits, they cant see it themselves.

[Wingflier]

and now time for being a lil extreme sarcastic

how come humans can snipe and AI not? how about whenever you kill a unit a pilot will jump out and snipe you - humans can do it! why not AI?
and AI should be the best it can be - it only makes sense! if humans can snipe and actualy hit from time to time why should'nt the AI be able to do it? and since humans can train and have perfact aim AI should have perfact aim too!

Ok PF.  Let's not get childish.  Obviously you are taking this a little out of proportion.  What I mean by making the AI the best it can be means making the AI ships the best they can be...not the pilots.  Obviously if every AI pilot could snipe, humans would be pretty much worthless.

However, regardless of what you guys say, I do not think it's possible for an AI controlled <SHIPS> (PF) to be better in any way shape or form than a Human controlled ship.
Humans = More Accurate
Humans = More Diverse (hint*FaF missiles and such)
Humans = Leave before dieing
Humans Can Learn.
Bots Can Not Learn.

Look.  You can suup up a bot and change all the .pdf files and fart in your pants all you want...but you are not going to make AI controlled ships that are better than human controlled ships.

I am not John Kerry.
This has been my argument all along.

What I'm saying is that we just need to make all ships (with the exclusion of the turret) the best they can possibly be and leave it at that.

Because once again, (for the fortieth time), even if we do make them all the best we can possibly make them Humans will still be better for the same amount of scrap.
Adam

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

damn man, you realy aint listening right?

Humans = More Accurate - heck no
Humans = More Diverse (hint*FaF missiles and such) - lol nope
Humans = Leave before dieing - not all humans, and I bet configured AI could do it better then some humans as well (ZTV scouts for example)



now listen, untill you play ZTV and try some of ZA odfs you cant realy say anything

[Spawn]

Humans = More Accurate

ai can be given perfect aim, aka never miss

Humans = More Diverse (hint*FaF missiles and such)

ai can use all their weapons BETTER than humans can (all at optimal firing rates)

Humans = Leave before dieing

ai will kill humans before they can run

Humans Can Learn.

you sure cant

Bots Can Not Learn.

they dont need to, they can already be at the highest possible ability.
and if you change the bz2 code, ai can be able to learn, its possible with todays computers.