1.3 Avenger Bug (Moderate)

[Avatar]

It is actually a chore to make AI realistic, as in 'human', in areas that are stictly mathematics.  Things like shooting, running, jumping, are all areas that the AI can be GODlike in unless you carefully 'dumb them down'.

The more esoteric attributes like strategy, value judgements, honor, things like that are VERY hard to simulate using AI.  Valve is very good at scripting such things but in most games AI are easily taunted, baited, lured, trapped, or destroyed in any way that a human would fall for only once. (twice for some of us)  

Unreal Tournament was the first game I've seen that gave Players the option to go up against GODlike AI.  This was simply the AI without the 'dumbing down' routines enacted.  Unlike Quake's "Insane" levels, which threw more and tougher units at you, UT kept the number of enemies out of the equation and made the enemies you faced shoot, run, jump, and path better and more aggressively.

Face it, in order for a computer game to function the computer has to know where you are, where you're going, how much ammo/hull you have, what weapons you have, etc..  The computer is always better, because it's running the show...

-Av-

[Wingflier]

Haven't you guys ever seen the Matrix?

"The Agents (or bots in the situation) will never be as strong or as fast as you can be..."

"Why?"

"Because their strength and their speed are still based on a world that is built on rules."

I know that this isn't a perfect analogy, but I believe that it says a lot for this situation.

I am still unconvinced, nor could you ever convince me...that in a 1v1 battle, against a hardcore vet, a bot would win.    In any situation.

Humans can always be better than damn robots.

And because of this it does not matter how hard you try to make bots better than humans, they will always be inferior.

Until the day we do actually find *Artifical Intelligence*.

This is why we should make the bots the best that we can.

We are superior.

Don't forget it.

Adam

[Zero Angel]

OK regarding AI, here is my position:

"If you make AI as good as a human then where is the point in having a human player?"
The point in having a human player is that you do not have to hold his hand. His battle tactics are far better then what a BZ2 AI can ever hope to accomplish. AIs dont hit pools unless you tell them to. They dont run for pods unless you tell them to.

Now, in making the AI 'better' you could take the 'quick and dirty' solution, and give the AI extreme accuracy and responsiveness, but these AI are not fun to fight because it feels like you are being cheated and you dont have the same fun as fighting a human AI.

A good AI in my opinion is one that is very evasive, very unpredictable, and very agressive. The last thing I remembered trying to research was trying to incorporate an 'elastic band' (under/overcompensation) type of aiming flaw that humans would have when fighting an evasive opponent while making the AI unexploitable (strafing in a single direction wont work) as well as unpredictable (via strafe/brAccelFactor settings).

For the version 1.2 enhanced scout, look for a topic called 'and who says bz2 ai sucks?' in the [Timedisruptor/Level 7] forum and make a scout out of the config I posted. The polished ver 1.3 configs will require you to wait.

I can release an AI enhanced ODF pack for 1.3, but one word of warning is that they're not done yet! Or at least not as done as I want them to be (1.3 introduces several new AI parameters and I am still trying to fully learn them, not to mention 3 of the previous 1.2 ones that are still giving me trouble. As such, not all of the units have fully enhanced AI settings.I dont have the configs on me ATM, but I can have post what I do have on Monday.

Also, hopefully Nathan or Ken will provide me with a little insight as to what some of these parameters do, because some of the effects are hard to describe.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

"I am still unconvinced, nor could you ever convince me...that in a 1v1 battle, against a hardcore vet, a bot would win. In any situation.

Humans can always be better than damn robots."

II hope you read what was posted above about AI "accuracy"...I'll put it to you, the way Ken Miller described it to me(and Avatar told a nice little story that also says the same thing).

"If a programmer wants too, he can program AI ships to hit you 100% of the time(ie..THEY NEVER MISS!)" Even with all the juking and swerving, unless you fly out of their engage angle(like a stock 1.2 turret has its blindspot) Then the  AI ship will NEVER miss.

That doesn't make a AI pilot a better PLAYER, just more acurate. AI doesn't strategize, it follows scripts,  paths and programs....it doesn;t strategize, it doesn't "out-smart you"...But if you come at it head on, it will beat you(if the programmer wants it to) given equal ships.

The whole "quality" of AI is another one of the balance issues that I just shrug off these days.

[DarkFox]

Wingflyer, AI can be easily made that will *crush* even the best vet in a dogfight. The reason you never see this AI is that it is never created, because it's unfair. Unreal tournament godlike bots are dumbed down, quake3 nightmare bots are dumbed down, and sure as hell BZ2 ai pilots are very dumbed down. Bottom line is if I have an AI scout in my base that will never miss a single bullet and picks up pods when low on health/ammo it will be *unbeatable* by a human scout, absolutely. It will doge around, and if you miss with a single bullet against it's crazy dodging then it will kill you, because it will never miss.

The matrix is not real life, if you want to compare it to computer games, then 'the one' is a human that cheats to win. Perfect AI, much like agents, would promote cheating as it would be the only possible way to win. I can't believe you missed that point about the matrix when you watched it.

[APCs r evil]

We are superior.

No hell we ain't, the only advantage I can think of for Humans over AI is the Human free will. Now AI can react at the speed of light, it takes Humans about 3/4 of a second to react(If I remember correctly). Now you may say that AI cannot learn like Humans, however that is one advantage for Humans quickly being neutralized. Although the bastards that abandoned Area 51 a few years ago already have this technology because it was given to them by an extra-terrestrial race, however these bastards have long ago abandoned Earth and have moved on to live with the aforementioned extra-terrestrials. Why don't you try finding the square root of Pi faster than a computer if you think Humans are superior. Sure AI cannot strategise.. yet. Oh and one more thing, computers cannot be corrupted by things like greed, envy, lust, hatred. They don't have to eat, sleep err.. relieve themselves, basically computers are just plain better than Humans, sure right now Humans can learn, but give it maybe 10-30 years and we'll have computers that can do every damn thing we can. Unfortunately the bastards making this AI have never seen the Terminator movies so when that day come I will be ready...

:devil:

[Gummo.nz]

Wing I'm curious as to why you said this:  (emphasis added)

"This is not Counter-Strike, there are no headshots...every shot does the same damage and humans are always going to be faster, smarter, and more accurate...not to mention the fact that we can run from the battle."

Why would you say that if you thought that the AI could never be as accurate as a good human player?

[Wingflier]

Wing I'm curious as to why you said this:  (emphasis added)

"This is not Counter-Strike, there are no headshots...every shot does the same damage and humans are always going to be faster, smarter, and more accurate...not to mention the fact that we can run from the battle."

Why would you say that if you thought that the AI could never be as accurate as a good human player?

The point I was trying to make about headshots was that in CS a bot does not necessarily have to be amazingly accurate to be insanely good in CS.  Since all they have to do is make the AI bot always aim for the enemy's head.  It may miss a couple shots, but it only has to hit once, because it's basically a one shot kill.  In CS, because of the headshot factor, bots are more accurate.

In Battlezone 2, since there is no headshot factor, it would mean that bots have to hit you every single time, I do not believe that this is possible as I believe, no, I know, that humans are MORE accurate than bots will ever be in the BZ2 community.

Look people you can argue and fart in your pants all you want...but I don't have to prove my side.  So far as we have seen, there has been no AI made that can even come close to matching the skills of a vet in a dogfight.

You are losing this argument because I need no proof.  My proof is the stinky 1.2 and 1.3 AI.  
YOU have to convince me that it is possible to make AI 'never miss' and do other insane things of that nature.

Until you do this I don't want to hear any more retarted arguments about how AIs can be better than humans.  Because they can't.

Even IF, by some miracle, (which is not going to happen), bots were made BETTER dogfighters than humans, the AI still would not be worth as much as humans.

Why??

Because simply:  Humans can think.  AI can not.  

Enemy base surrounded by guntowers?  Human = Take Out Power
Bot = Get Shot

Several Titans coming at you?  Human = Take Cover
Bot = Attack and Get killed

Being attacked by three scouts (2 with minigun and 1 with chaingun)?  Human = Kill Chaingun scout first
Bot = Kill anything first.

...These are just a few of the INFINITE possibilites of which we could never possibly make a bot prepared for.  Which is why, even if bots were better at dogfighting (they will never be), they would still NOT be worth as much as a human is worth.

Period.

You guys keep claiming that the AI can be soooo good.  We'll if it's true then lets see it.  I'm waiting.  Show it to me.  Take it OFF!  

But until then please stop posting statements which have no logical proof to back them up.

I'm tired of hearing your annoying banter.

This is not Unreal Tournament.  This is not Quake 3.  This is BattleZone 2.

Let's see some evidence people.

Adam

[NoK0mm3nt]

You honestly have no clue do you Wing?

"In Battlezone 2, since there is no headshot factor, it would mean that bots have to hit you every single time, I do not believe that this is possible as I believe, no, I know, that humans are MORE accurate than bots will ever be in the BZ2 community."

IF the programmers wanted to, they could. It is all based on mathematical equations using velocity and aceleration. Since the AI has access to this information, it can calcuate EXACTLY where the ship will be next. IF they wanted, it even has access to what direction keys you press before your ship moves.

A human has no chance of calculation this information on the fly.

Unless of course you can prove otherwise? Can you do several quadratic equations, differentiate, integrate, work out the exact numerical values of a ships current velocity and aceleration? This is what you owuld need to do to aim aswell as the computer.

"Look people you can argue and fart in your pants all you want...but I don't have to prove my side.  So far as we have seen, there has been no AI made that can even come close to matching the skills of a vet in a dogfight."

That is a simply because the programmers have a lil thing called..... "COMMON SENSE"

Of course they will not program an AI that will not be beatable. No-one would play the game and it serves no purpose.

"You are losing this argument because I need no proof.  My proof is the stinky 1.2 and 1.3 AI.  
YOU have to convince me that it is possible to make AI 'never miss' and do other insane things of that nature."

I'm afraid they are not losing the arguement. You are just making illogical statements that ignore the simple fact that the computer has access to every minute bit of detail, with perfect precision. It is also able to make calcuations based on this information that would take humans hours to do.

Computers are not slowed down by biomechanical reactions like humans are. I once did a small survey of around 200 gamers, using a program to test there reaction speeds. the hardcore gamers averaged around 0.15-2.5 roughly with there preferred hand, and 0.-0.3 with there non-preferred hand.

It is possible for the AI to react before the information is even displayed on the screen for you, since the AI is part of the program.

"Until you do this I don't want to hear any more retarted arguments about how AIs can be better than humans.  Because they can't."

Speaking of retarded statements...

"Enemy base surrounded by guntowers?  Human = Take Out Power
Bot = Get Shot"

The programmers can make the AI take out power aswell... Tell my why they can't?

After all, they wrote the program, they can write it to do whatever they want.

"Several Titans coming at you?  Human = Take Cover
Bot = Attack and Get killed"

The AI could be programmed to control a mtr bike group, so they they shoot at the titans while staying out of range, they would never get hit.

Its as simple as the programmers putting in line, that once the mortars get within a certain distances, they back-off before shooting again.

A human could never do it with such precision.

"Being attacked by three scouts (2 with minigun and 1 with chaingun)?  Human = Kill Chaingun scout first
Bot = Kill anything first."

The can get access to what weapons ships have. IF the programmers wanted, they could even have the AI know what weapons are loaded BEFORE you see them fire.

So the AI to target the chaingun scout before the human even knew one had chains.

The AI could even have access to how much ammo a scout had, so if one scout didn't have enough ammo to kill them, but another did, it owuld target the low ammo scout.

If a human had only just seen the scouts, they wouldn't know one was low on ammo until it ran out...

Think about it.

"You guys keep claiming that the AI can be soooo good.  We'll if it's true then lets see it.  I'm waiting.  Show it to me.  Take it OFF!   "

We don't have access to the source code, do we? We don't right the AI, we use what is written for us. If the programmers wanted to they could, but it is useless to a game to have perfect AI, so why would they?

"But until then please stop posting statements which have no logical proof to back them up."

Actually, everything I wrote in here can be backed up with basic programming knowledge.

So, go learn some gaming programming, then comeback and try to argue. lol

"This is not Unreal Tournament.  This is not Quake 3.  This is BattleZone 2."

Agreed, but are they all not programs?

As to your Matrix quote. HE was better because he WASN'T bound by the rules of the program.

We, however, ARE bound by the rules of the program.

If he was in battlezone2, he would be able to back a Assault tank hover your base down.

Can you? NO. Why? Because you ARE bound the by physic engines rules that define movement in the game.

Your arguements sound like that of a 10yr gamer with little knowledge on how games work.


*EDIT*

Like said before, even with BZ2's AI thatwas coded crap, go play ZTV by yourself. I beat it kicks your butt repeatably.

[Wingflier]

"Enemy base surrounded by guntowers? Human = Take Out Power
Bot = Get Shot"

The programmers can make the AI take out power aswell... Tell my why they can't?

After all, they wrote the program, they can write it to do whatever they want.

NoComment...sigh...I said no more retarted posts...and you did exactly that...a retarted post...

Even worse.

Once again no evidence to back it up.

I quoted above, and somehow you entirely missed the fact that I said

...These are just a few of the INFINITE possibilites of which we could never possibly make a bot prepared for. Which is why, even if bots were better at dogfighting (they will never be), they would still NOT be worth as much as a human is worth.

Somehow you missed the fact, and for some reason don't understand the fact that there are INFINITE possibilities that no human could make the bots prepared for.

Okay.  Maybe we do make the the computer take out the power first, but can they do it without getting hit?  How will they know when to go into the base?  Will they wait until everybody leaves it to hit the power?  

The computer is not smart.  It can't think.  There are soooo many possibilities in BZ2 that a computer can not ever even come close to a human in making them.  You can't teach it all the possibilities and all the situations because there will always be NEW ones.  Do you understand this?

Sure...in DeathMatch CPUs would be fine.  DeathMatch has more Finite possibilties.  "You!  Go get gun.  Blast him.  Good Job."  

But we are not talking Deathmatch here.  That's not what this post is about.  This is about Team Strategy and the fact that even if a computer could be better than a human in dogfighting (it can't in BZ2)...it would still be far inferior, especially in terms of making decisions and strategy.

Look...once again you give me this crap about how computers can calculate PI, and can techinically decode every detail...blah blah blah...

What does that have to do with anything?

So they can process faster than us.

Big Woooop De Do.

Just because they have the potential to be better than us because they can process faster does not mean they are better than us or can be better than us with today's technology.

It is IRRELEVANT how fast a CPU can think or act, BZ2 is set in a world of rules which many humans can react to as fast as the world allows.  So the bot has no real Advantage in how fast it can process.

...Once again you give me these dumb arguments about how the CPU could be better than humans or some crap.

Dude I don't care.  You're wrong.  They can't be.  You have no evidence.  I do.

You can give me all this crap about how you can't make the AI better because you don't have the code to the .exe file and how the programmers haven't done it themselves because they have "Common Sense", but you have no proof of this.  And again you are just blundering annoying banter.

I know I am pissing people off here.

I'm not asking for much.

I just think that the AI, which is (and this is not an argument), in it's current state not even close to as good as a human in any area.  Should not be hindered.  (With the exception of turrets).  

I just want AI Avengers to be able to shoot shads as fast as possible in strategy.

That's all.

Adam

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

omg wing!

now im just rolling on floor laughing
you are telling the best modders and the greatest minds of this community that they are wrong? and if thats not enough, the more expreinced players and codders?

if *everyone* sais your wrong, most likely your wrong, I gave you and example just a lil bit of what AI can do, get ZTV for 1.2 and ZA odfs, seriously you are *Ammo*ing dead

and you know what, imma be crazy and actualy go with your way, you do relize half of this community are not hardcore vets? so assume a hardcore vet can beat the AI (LOL!!) the regular or lower skill level players wont


wing, your post are totaly retarded, we gave you proofs, but you keep ignoring them

and since you like your "infinite" idea let me blow it up with simple maths

Code Select Expand


AI - if coded can do everything the human do
                        +
computers - work faster then the mind
____________________________________

AI, which is computer can do everything the human can do and faster / better
                                          +
some humans are'nt that skilled or exprienced in the game
_____________________________________

AI is ALOT better



you do know simple maths at least right? cause you sure show you have no idea in basic programing

but can they do it without getting hit? How will they know when to go into the base? Will they wait until everybody leaves it to hit the power?

yep, they will caculate the line of sight of all turrets and gun towers in the area and just for you, it'll even caculate the exact speed it needs to go to miss the gts shots [aka wobble kill]

+
do you realy think all human players are that smart to do that?



throw me all the possiablties and examples you have, the AI will always be better
your just too close minded to listen, look how many people told you that
not 1, not 2 alot more, and you still - like a baby - "your all wrong"

"You! Go get gun. Blast him. Good Job."

lol, think about this: AI sees you, no metter if your out of his radar because it controls the whole world, it checks your ship, finds out you what armor you have and run to the best weapon to kill you on its way to you, besides the point it can take the best weapon vs you it will also never miss can be made to shoot pods if your more then 40m close to them and much much more


AI WILL BE BETTER IF PROGRAMED RIGHT
capishe?



lol, once again, the ignorance -

Look...once again you give me this crap about how computers can calculate PI, and can techinically decode every detail...blah blah blah...

What does that have to do with anything?

omg! what does that have to do with anything? it has to do with everything because this game involves computers and what computers can do

Just because they have the potential to be better than us because they can process faster does not mean they are better than us or can be better than us with today's technology.

huh? if someone has the potential to be better then you it will be better then you

It is IRRELEVANT how fast a CPU can think or act, BZ2 is set in a world of rules which many humans can react to as fast as the world allows. So the bot has no real Advantage in how fast it can process.

lets make this short
bullhoot
its relevant
huamans cant react as fast as the world

Dude I don't care. You're wrong. They can't be. You have no evidence. I do.

scared? :p sounds like you just dont want to belive the truth


we do have evidence, in math terms AND just a small tiny lil examples [ZTV and ZA odfs]
you have nothing but dumb staments

You can give me all this crap about how you can't make the AI better because you don't have the code to the .exe file and how the programmers haven't done it themselves because they have "Common Sense", but you have no proof of this. And again you are just blundering annoying banter.

omfg
dude, they were already made better with a SIMPLE odf tweaking, just think about what they could do with the source code! they have ALOT more knowledge then you or me in this area, and if they tell you something its most likely right
do you have any idea how bz2 is even run? probably not, they do

but you have no proof of this

*Ammo* man, they got knowledge, you dont

[NoK0mm3nt]

Thank you PF.

Its like trying to argue with a a toddler.

"No! I want! Mine!! Gimme!"

"No, you can't have it, it burns!"

"YOUR WRONG! GIMME!"



Wing, the computer controls the world. The world which you see is jsut a bunch of numbers that define how everything behaves.

Since the computer has access to all these numbers, it can calcuate how everything will behave.

"It is IRRELEVANT how fast a CPU can think or act, BZ2 is set in a world of rules which many humans can react to as fast as the world allows. So the bot has no real Advantage in how fast it can process."

LOL. No you can't. Your reaction speed will not be faster then 200ms.
In that time, the DLL Execute will have run 20 times. YOU can't reaction as fast as the world allows, I'm afraid its a physical FACT.

It will know exactly where you are at all times and what your building without haven't anything near you.

"...These are just a few of the INFINITE possibilites of which we could never possibly make a bot prepared for. Which is why, even if bots were better at dogfighting (they will never be), they would still NOT be worth as much as a human is worth."

WRONG again.

There are NOT infinite possibilities. Your acting like BZ2 is a real world.

sorry to burst your bubble, but everything in the BZ2 would is stored on a computer. That means there are only so many different combinations that can exist for the BZ2. That is another FACT.

"I know I am pissing people off here.

I'm not asking for much.

I just think that the AI, which is (and this is not an argument), in it's current state not even close to as good as a human in any area. Should not be hindered. (With the exception of turrets).

I just want AI Avengers to be able to shoot shads as fast as possible in strategy. "

Your not pissing us off, your just making us laugh with your childish arguements which ignore the facts.

I also disagree with multiplayer unless you are going to lock bz2 as only 2 player.

Like has been said before. The majority of regular games that are played are 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 Strats.

If you make the AI much better, the need for human thugs will diminish.

Already in ZST, if I have an intermediate thug, it is better for me to move AI control turrets into the field then give him a ship.

I played 1.3 two days ago now, I also 1v1 you. My AI units stopped me from having to do almost anything to beat you.

You keep whining for proof, but PF and I have already told you where to get it.

GET ZTV, a mod for BZ2. Get Zero Angel's ODF's. They destroy you even with bz2's "crap AI".

Stop whining for proof when we are giving it too you, but you just won't look.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

Once again, this proves the Axiom:

"'Tis better to say nothing and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

Wing, Go back to 11th grade history class and comeback when you finally get a clue.

[Avatar]

Feeb, do I tell stories?  lol...  

There is most definately a 'headshot' in BZ2.  Besides the dreaded snipe, hop in a Scout and attack a Landmaster.  Dual Assault Blast vs Scout = one shot kill.

Again, everything seen in a game is controlled by the computer.   No human, playing by the computer's rules, could outperform the AI since by definition you're playing "its" game.  Simple enough.

Wing needs to realize that great effort went into creating an AI that ISN'T Godlike.  That HAS faults.  These faults are what make the game fun and fair.  Without them none of us would be here arguing over it...  

-Av-

[Wingflier]

Okay guys...argue with me all you want...

You think just because most of you disagree with me I'm wrong?  The majority is commonly wrong....

You think the millions of people who supported the Nazi party during WWII were right?

Oh but wait, the people against it must have been wrong.

You guys can argue about how the AI can be sooo great and whatever...but you are still losing this argument.  

You lack proof.  I need no proof, I can beat any AI you throw out at me.

I'm tried ZST:Long Journey AI.  Big Deal.  They can hover really high and are extremely jumpy.  I still own them 1v1.  I can even beat them 2v1.  And you must remember that they cheat really badly.

I'll try ZTV and Zero Angel's ODF's.  Just tell me where I can find them.  But I know without trying them I will own them.

Look...you guys may all be against me.  But it doesn't matter.  The fact still stands that Humans can beat the BZ2 AI and you have no proof to prove me wrong.

Period.

Stop TALKING.  And let's see this AI that is soooo extremely good.

Until then...I'm right.  You can call me a little 10 year old idiot all you want.  But in my opinion a 10 year old is represented more by people who argue with statements which have no logical backing.

This AI does not exist.  It will never exist.  So get up all out my biznass.  Got it?

The next time you type out a statement please ask yourself:  "Does what I'm saying have any proof to back it?"

You'll waste less of my time that way.

Adam