Balance - since I missed the last topic

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

god DS you have no idea what ur talking about you should realy just shut up

the balance should be between 2 people who know the weapon in and out, how to best use it and how to use in the most efficently way, that way you see everything about the weapons
2 newbs will just sit and shoot at eachtoher without moving
take sonic blast vs FE laser, if 2 newbs would use it I wont be surprised if the sonic blast will win
but if it'll be between vets the FE laser will win cause it can dodge the sonic blasts (I just threw random weapons) you seriously havnt got the slightest clue of what ur talking about...

[deadscion]

god DS you have no idea what ur talking about you should realy just shut up

the balance should be between 2 people who know the weapon in and out, how to best use it and how to use in the most efficently way, that way you see everything about the weapons

Only 2? and you think this will represent most players?

This will represent 2 vets with personal opinions unlike anyone else.

I am saying skills make up most of the game, and skills vary way too much to measure  balance adjustments.
Most balance opinions by experienced players are nothing more than their personal opinion about gaming issues they dislike and you can not please everyone.
The rest is all generic and should be adjusted that way.
This is the only acheiveable balance.

There will always be someone who can use a weapon or ship better than you.
There will always be someone who will holler ---Not Fair--- when someone is better than you at some weapon or strategy.

I don't know what I am talking about? Haven't you ever bothered to listen to any after game complaints?
---what so and so did was not fair---So and so: that was to fair just good skill---
Blah blah blah
Happens all the time and the next thing you know the loser is complaining about balance or something being too much of a disadvantage which needs to be fixed.

Balance issues are never about the game just about stuff you personally don't like about the game.


Again generic adjustments are the best balance you will ever acheive.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

Only 2? and you think this will represent most players?

phrased it badly, tested by at least two people who know what they are doing...


you are too blind to read between your own lines DS

there is no reason in the world why I for example, can kill a turret with a mini scout when others cant, no reason in the world, just because a bunch of newbs cant kill a turret does that mean its unbalanced?
thats just bullhoot... if one can do it then so can the rest, all you need to do is find the one who uses stuff most potential and see how he deals with stuff, if he can so can the others

There will always be someone who will holler ---Not Fair--- when someone is better than you at some weapon or strategy.

true, but is it not fair or is it just a fault of his lack-of-skills? if someone like that will take the time to actualy improve instead of crying he'll see its damn fair


how about I tune turrets to kill everything in 1 shot how about it then DS? is that balanced too? according to you - it'll be perfactaly balanced but people wont like it

[Avatar]

I don't want to see this thread locked, so tone down the emotions here...   
***

There will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game.  That's why I ALWAYS ask for options, and 1.3 is an options paradise...

Let's take my favorite example, TRIBES/TRIBES2.  I'm sure UT and Quake suffer from the same issues....

When Tribes first came out most of us couldn't even get up on a ledge in Heavy Armor.  Then Allesandra shows us how to make a jump when jetting and suddenly everyone is on ledges in Heavy.  Balancing jetting for newbs would have meant, in this case, Heavies jumping to the moon once they developed their skills.  That would have been a bad thing...

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A LEARNING CURVE, and hopefully Vets will step up and help the newbs develop their skills because games die really fast when this doesn't happen.

***

Balance in a game is often done by the Beta group, who are never given the time or opportunity to develop mad skills in the final game engine.  Once the game is out for awhile what usually happens is that obvious exploits and imbalances are addressed, but the 'Vet vs Newb' issues are harder to settle. 

In the case of BZ2's 1.3 patch the Recycler variant gives us unlimited levels of skill, which should be used to balance gameplay for both new and Vet players.  ('tho I wouldn't call one a "Newb" Recy, or nobody will use it.) 

-Av-

[OvermindDL1]

I still do not understand why people do not use the recycler varients, it only makes sense, doing it any other way does not...  Stupidity mabye (dare I say)?  Mabye ignorence?  Yes I am trying to drive these people to try them out, they are just too useful.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

"The problem with a game like BZ2 is that it is deceptively complex and every little thing affects everything else in one way or another, it's impossible to see the full ramifications of the changes you make without intense testing with experienced players, balance is not a science it's an art"

Again....a brilliant assemement of BZ 2 and the prospects of any attempted rebalancing.

I only say the same thing I've said may times before, start small w/ universally accepted "Unbalanced items" and work slowly to fix that 1 unit or weapon, then move onto the Next "Universally accepted" unbalanced weapon or ship. After the 3 "unviversally accepted" fix....Stop...your done...

Unless you wanna be doing this till I'm 50...and that really isn't that far away....

[Angelwing]

But they'd still need to be variants of 'something' - if it's a 'variant', it isn't stock, unless you eliminated the 'Standard' mode completely

I also think having multiple balance variants will just create a bigger divide. You'll have people who play and stay true to one or the other, and games may fill up a lot slower due to people disagreeing with the 'variant' of gameplay. (i'm sure we've all experienced the times when an 'unknown' joins your game and immediately requests to change it to an MPI, even after kicking him 5x)

[Red Devil]

 Been reading what PF and DS have said and, believe it or not, it sounds like you two are saying the same thing, just in different ways.

As I was trying to say in my previous post that there are differing levels of balance.  First, you have the base factors, like weaponry.  Then you move on to the timing factors, and then to the implementation of all those factors in a game setting where the various *use* of those factors come into play.

Maybe people aren't comfortable with making variants.  If you guys need a variant made to suit your playing style, I'm sure we could help you make some after PB2 is released. You can really go crazy with them.

What would everybody say if 1.3 were like 1.2 with all the added features (and then some)?  The best of both worlds. For those of you that have seen Lizard's FleshStorm and Fishbone's DuneCommand, you know what I'm talking about.  For you that haven't, it'll be worth the wait.  As Lizard said, balancing three new races was almost impossible. 

The best you can do is get them to where the physics and weapons are very playable, release it, and then involve the community in the balance discussion where you get more eyes and hands on it.

[DarkFox]

There will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.Ã,  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game

This is an issue I feel rather strongly about, because people always seem to miss the big issue - If a new player plays a game balanced for vets, he always has the option to just get better. There's always away for a new player to beat another new player in a given game - increase in skill.

At the vet end, though, there isn't such an option. Most BZ2 uber-vets are at at least, I'd say, 95% of their maximum skill level. They're learned every trick, their aim is close to exact, their dodging as good as it possibly can be, ad their kowledge of strategy rather all-emcompassing.
If such a vet goes into a game with another similarly skilled player/team, then is faced with something that he just can't beat, it can often be because it's not balanced for them. With no option to adjust in skill (get better) the beaten player is left with one option - use the same technique. Before long it will commonly be called 'abusive', not just by a oe-off whining game loser like DS mentioned, but by the vet community at large, and with no way to beat it, they have to ban it instead.
Flying mortar bikes were such an issue, as was base hovering. There are other issues of balance agreed by the vast majority of veteran players, such as the early-game scion weakness, or the power of blink. These things should be balanced.

As for the newer players - well, first of all, they'd benefit because vets wouldn't be able to run rings around them with overpowered tactics (such as blinking arc/gauss warriors trapping them in base, or locking them down with base hovering). Secondly, if there's something they really don't want to reproduce, they can always just learn a counter on their road to being a better player.


In summary, I'd say all this talk of 'vet balance' vs 'newb balance' is an unclear and unconstructive way to look at things. I find the best way to look at competitive videogame balance is simply to look for strategies that, when taken to their fullest potential, cannot be countered. If you find such a strategy, either:
a:  weaken it so that it CAN be countered (eg 1.3 mortar bikes or turret circling),
b: make something else more specifically powerful against it so that it can be countered (like ZST turrets shooting hoverers),  or
c: just take it out completely (eg 1.3 hovering).

Locking scions down in their early game is a tactic that cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a tone-down of laser, or by giving scions a counter (like giving stock sentries absorbtion shields).
Using blink and hunting in the late game is a tactic that (marginally debateably) cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a chargeup blink, a slow-firing somewhat random destination blink, or the removal of blink completey.

Whether you're the newest of the new or the most experienced vet in the world, you will not beat these tactics if they are executed by a half-decent vet, and as such I view the vets vs newbs argument to be redundant. These issues need addressing no matter how you swing it.

[Red Devil]

 Dark Fox, since you are the expert in weaponry, I'm going to ask you: what is a good range for Blink and how often should you be able to get Blink capability back again?

[DarkFox]

As I posted before, the issue with blink isn't the transportation ability, it's the fact that it saves you from a tight situation.
Trouble is, if you ramp the ammo cost up high enough to make dogfighting with mind to blink away impractical, it means you can't really use it for much else either.

That said, if it really *had* to be balanced in ammo cost and reload terms, I'd say give it a firerate of about 3 minutes, but keep the ammo cost nice and low (about 1000ammo base, but 0 extra cost for distance). That way, it could be used as transportation, but if used in a dogfight the enemy would have a chance to chase you down and finish you, and more importantly you wouldn't be able to blink back to them after you collected your pod.

Is the chargegun idea still not washing with the devs?

[Angelwing]

Highly, highly doubtful

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

I'm still unsure about blink being too powerful as you guys put it, before we touch it I realy want to have a series of games. 4v4, I'll let whoever is cmding get blink and we then play

[APCs r evil]

Yes, we really should do that sometime.

Red, don't you think you should let DF know a little more about your Blink?

[Red Devil]

 No specifics. I'm just going to say that it's working the way you wanted it.  That and that GSH has really done some wonderful things with BZ2 since PB1. I think maybe Ken and the other guys have been contrributing in the background too, but not sure.  I just needed to get some initial base figures from you is all.  Be nice to have some wider input from everybody on some base figures for handling and other weapons too.   Just need a wider sample is all.

After PB2's released, we'll all have a nice big balance fight and go from there. 

I like your definition of balance, DF.