Balance - since I missed the last topic

[APCs r evil]

As of right now Red I'm neutral on your Blink, but the nature of it concerns me.

[Red Devil]

Please elaborate (on the PB2 board please).

[deadscion]

I apologize if I have offended anyone, however this topic has become a damn fine read.

Bottom line to this topic as Overmind put it, if you use a recycler variant for this balance study, you can do what ever you want without affecting anyone in a negative manner.

[OvermindDL1]

Would be interesting to restrict the number of blinks that can be on people at one time, like limit it to one, mabye two with another tech upgrade of some sort...?

[Red Devil]

 The beauty of it is that you can make it any way you want it.  You can have just one or you can have a Blink-O-Rama.  You won't be stuck with anything.  If you want it different from stock, just stick it in a variant.  This puts the power in your hands.

[Avatar]

Ack..   

C'mon guys...  think SCION...   make it short ranged but fast recharging when in Combat mode, and far range but slow recharge in Assault mode...



-Av-

[Red Devil]

 The Sci-on-na-toor!

[Zero Angel]

There will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game

This is an issue I feel rather strongly about, because people always seem to miss the big issue - If a new player plays a game balanced for vets, he always has the option to just get better. There's always away for a new player to beat another new player in a given game - increase in skill.

At the vet end, though, there isn't such an option. Most BZ2 uber-vets are at at least, I'd say, 95% of their maximum skill level. They're learned every trick, their aim is close to exact, their dodging as good as it possibly can be, ad their kowledge of strategy rather all-emcompassing.
If such a vet goes into a game with another similarly skilled player/team, then is faced with something that he just can't beat, it can often be because it's not balanced for them. With no option to adjust in skill (get better) the beaten player is left with one option - use the same technique. Before long it will commonly be called 'abusive', not just by a oe-off whining game loser like DS mentioned, but by the vet community at large, and with no way to beat it, they have to ban it instead.
Flying mortar bikes were such an issue, as was base hovering. There are other issues of balance agreed by the vast majority of veteran players, such as the early-game scion weakness, or the power of blink. These things should be balanced.

As for the newer players - well, first of all, they'd benefit because vets wouldn't be able to run rings around them with overpowered tactics (such as blinking arc/gauss warriors trapping them in base, or locking them down with base hovering). Secondly, if there's something they really don't want to reproduce, they can always just learn a counter on their road to being a better player.


In summary, I'd say all this talk of 'vet balance' vs 'newb balance' is an unclear and unconstructive way to look at things. I find the best way to look at competitive videogame balance is simply to look for strategies that, when taken to their fullest potential, cannot be countered. If you find such a strategy, either:
a:  weaken it so that it CAN be countered (eg 1.3 mortar bikes or turret circling),
b: make something else more specifically powerful against it so that it can be countered (like ZST turrets shooting hoverers),  or
c: just take it out completely (eg 1.3 hovering).

Locking scions down in their early game is a tactic that cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a tone-down of laser, or by giving scions a counter (like giving stock sentries absorbtion shields).
Using blink and hunting in the late game is a tactic that (marginally debateably) cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a chargeup blink, a slow-firing somewhat random destination blink, or the removal of blink completey.

Whether you're the newest of the new or the most experienced vet in the world, you will not beat these tactics if they are executed by a half-decent vet, and as such I view the vets vs newbs argument to be redundant. These issues need addressing no matter how you swing it.

I haven't been actively playing for a while but this is how it was:

ISDF: Mod-easy early game, Moderate mid-game, Moderate late-game
Scions: Difficult early game, Mod-Difficult mid-game, Mod-Easy Late game

The very balance of BZ2 stacks late-game in favor of the scions to reward them for surviving to reach blink, and having to put up with weak starting weapons and expensive tech. I do not think that it is a good idea to increase blink costs too much, but I did like the suggestion of a slight delay. Even a hold cost (with an x-low drain) would be another good thing to implement. But I do not think that balance should be emphasized too vigorously lest you make a mistake of overbalancing as with what happened during the 1.1 -> 1.2 transition.

[Red Devil]

Good analysis there on the difficulty transition, ZA.

Normally, I wouldn't post about what's going on in PB2, but since this will have a lot of impact, I need a wider input sample before it's released for public consumption.

The power for Blink is independant of weapon power.  You can choose to either use your weapons and then get out of Dodge or you can choose to use Blink, use your weapons, and then try to escape on your own.  The Blink distance is a total.  You can make multiple jumps adding up to the total or you can use it up in one shot.  It  recharges slowly now, but can be made to recharge at any rate.  The range is at 175 now, but, as I said before, can be any distance.

That sound like what it should be like?  If so, I need ranges and recharge times so I can come up with reasonable averages.  By reasonable, I mean not equivalant to 1.2 Blink.

Aside: When someone overuses Blink in 1.2, are they known as Blinky The Clown?  Or maybe Blinky The Own?  Sorry...

[APCs r evil]

Well Red after some more thought, I have decided that I dislike your Blink.

Why? You can't Blink long distances, this makes it useless for travelling about the map, the thing I like most about Blink.

[Spawn]

ISDF: Mod-easy early game, Moderate mid-game, Moderate late-game
Scions: Difficult early game, Mod-Difficult mid-game, Mod-Easy Late game

The very balance of BZ2 stacks late-game in favor of the scions to reward them for surviving to reach blink, and having to put up with weak starting weapons and expensive tech. I do not think that it is a good idea to increase blink costs too much, but I did like the suggestion of a slight delay. Even a hold cost (with an x-low drain) would be another good thing to implement. But I do not think that balance should be emphasized too vigorously lest you make a mistake of overbalancing as with what happened during the 1.1 -> 1.2 transition.

this is pretty accurate, but there is one more half step to late game.  when scions get blink and begin to win, isdf can still come back, but only if the isdf commander made rocket tanks already.  the isdf will eventually take back the map if the scions take too long to end or cant find out how to end it well

[Red Devil]

I guess you didn't read what I wrote then:

The range is at 175 now, but, as I said before, can be any distance.

That sound like what it should be like?  If so, I need ranges and recharge times so I can come up with reasonable averages.  By reasonable, I mean not equivalant to 1.2 Blink.

Well Red after some more thought, I have decided that I dislike your Blink.

Why? You can't Blink long distances, this makes it useless for travelling about the map, the thing I like most about Blink.

[Spawn]

well, using red's concept you could easily make a blink which operates independent of a ships ammo, can go as far as you want but can only be used every X seconds, regardless of the ship

thats basicially what it is, but it requires new features added to work correctly, and the X seconds could be bypassed by picking up two crates or having a few spare warriors lying around, but taht is a minor thing

what do you think X scould be?


also, on the subject of recycler variants, they often dont make the game more fun, they can easily ruin many aspects if the host is a jackass (aka fountain enemy base by uncommenting a few lines).  Also, if you have a seperate download and assets for all this, there is a chance of bad assets, installation problems and other small, but annoying complications.

[APCs r evil]

175m is a waste of Blink unless you are running from an enemy. It is much more efficient to use the EMP pull to travel around at those distances. I'm talking 300m+ Blinks.

[DarkFox]

I, too, like the idea of being able to travel around using blink, but not using it in combat. The travel thing is a good strategic element, but the combat ability of blink is what makes it a game-spoiler.