1.3 Developers Please Read

[Avatar]

I don't believe that 1.3 touched any AI routines directly, just fixed those issues that held the AI back.  In some cases I'm pretty sure Ken mentioned that the AI wasn't even actually LOOKING at whatever they were fighting.  Imagine fighting someone when you can't look directly at them, only see them out of the corner of your eye...   hehe

Anyway, I believe the 'improved' AI in 1.3 is due to ODF tweaks mostly from the community, fixed bugs that plagued the AI and weapons, and changes in physics that once favored human pilots...

-Av-

[Spawn]

humans can still use physics to their advantage vs ai, but now not as greatly

[BZZERKER]

Wing, I honestly have nothing against you but, it seems that you sometimes fail to understand anything unless it's a punch in the face. You failed to understand (in the locked topic) that the AI in fine for the majority of the community and that making "god-like" AI in BZ2 (for the most part) is undesirable. You then turn around (almost as soon as the last topic was locked) and started this topic which basically reiterates (in a different style) the same thing as in the last topic (I'm not the only one to see this thread in that light). This is why I was so rough (yet I didn't flame btw) on you. I will apologize for the bunny though, as that was probably a little over the top.


btw, I'd almost be willing to bet money that your younger than me

[technoid]

From what we can all gather, core AI subroutines in the codebase will never be touched (in any of the patch versions, including 1.3).  Anything else outside of that is fair game (ODF's, et al).  That seems to be the gist of it.

[Wingflier]

Wing, I honestly have nothing against you but, it seems that you sometimes fail to understand anything unless it's a punch in the face. You failed to understand (in the locked topic) that the AI in fine for the majority of the community and that making "god-like" AI in BZ2 (for the most part) is undesirable. You then turn around (almost as soon as the last topic was locked) and started this topic which basically reiterates (in a different style) the same thing as in the last topic (I'm not the only one to see this thread in that light). This is why I was so rough (yet I didn't flame btw) on you. I will apologize for the bunny though, as that was probably a little over the top.


btw, I'd almost be willing to bet money that your younger than me

BZZERKER....
  What part of "Add 2 levels to your options don't you understand".
I did not ask for a manditory conversion from the stinky 1.3 AI to new 'godlike' AI...I asked for the option to do that.
   If you don't like my preference of AI, then you don't join my game.  This does not reiterate the last topic.  This is a new topic with the option to make the AI better.
Why do you have such a problem with that?  I think you just like to start arguments...
  Please think about what you are saying before you post things against my ideas.


Adam

[DarkFox]

We know what you're asking.

Thing is, wing F, you shouldn't be asking for *anything* that can be done without developer help. AI can be improved, and through recycler variants already in 1.3 an extra recycler option can be added called 'extra skill recycler' with the improved AI ships (if you don't think community members can improve the AI, read more of zero angel's threads).

In short, stop asking for developers, whose time is money, to do things for you, when you can do them yourself.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

well put DF

[Wingflier]

k sorry sorry...
it was just an idea.

I will be working on it myself.

I just figured the 1.3 developers where trying to make the game fun for community...

[DarkFox]

I just figured the 1.3 developers where trying to make the game fun for community...

They are, and there aren't a great deal of members of the community that want good AI. The better AI, the less important human dogfighting skills are, and the more important strategy is. At the moment there is a fine balance between action and strategy, hence the majority of the community wants the balance to stay.

To further ellaborate, if the AI was amazing (the best it could be, you said in a previous thread) then human wingmen would be pointless, thus the game would be 100% a strategy game, which commanders played entirely from the comm bunker.
Try playing a game of BZ2 against a friend staying in the comm bunker, you'll realise the strategy game on it's own is *very* poor compared to titles like Starcraft, Warcraft3, Dawn of War, Total Annihilation, and even command and conquer. The action and teamwork are necessary to make BZ2 the great game that it is, and thus the human players must pound the AI to the ground in a fight.

[Wingflier]

Alright...

But the things you are stating still seems like opinion more than facts.  (I'm not necessarily saying that they are wrong, just that they are opinions.)
...And I disagree with them...

When I made this post I did not know how hard it is to make the AI better...

Obviously it must be pretty hard after all the comments I received...

But it was just a suggestion...the man idea was to compromise so that everybody could put the AI level to whatever they wanted.

I know of at least a few people who not mind this, and would probably promote it.

And we have not even taken into consideration the people who do not browse through these forums.

Adam

[OvermindDL1]

Let me re-iterate since you seem not able to comprehend, AI is *the* single most difficult thing to program in a game and the developers that are working on this patch have not worked on AI before.  They have made no changes, no additions, and probobly are not capable of doing so without a great deal more time to learn it.

And what do you mean you will work on it?  How would that even be possible.  Please stop spouting stuff out without any knowledge on the subject.  I have even tried to write a somewhat decent AI on a game I was making; it is, to put it nicely, amazingly difficult.  So let me see if I can put this another way.  Hush!

[Wingflier]

And what do you mean you will work on it?  How would that even be possible.  Please stop spouting stuff out without any knowledge on the subject.  I have even tried to write a somewhat decent AI on a game I was making; it is, to put it nicely, amazingly difficult.  So let me see if I can put this another way.  Hush!

Overmind you are an idiot.

In the same freaking forum that you post this stupidity about how it is impossible to make the AI better, Zero Angel has given a link to some AI that are better.

Here it is since you are too dumb to see it:
http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3477

Go try those .odfs and then tell me that you can't make the AI better.

I don't won't to see any of your 12 year old posts anymore.

Adam

[Spawn]

*lol* OM is one of the most brilliant people on this forum, and you call him an idiot, he did not say it is impossible, and he was not even talking about bz2 ai, but ai in ANY game.  In a program he MADE, not a bz2 mod, but he did everything for it, and he is sayning that ai in general is very hard to program.

[MowerMan]

WF you should really try to not be so insulting.  OM1 was not out of line or incorrect in any way.  You implied that you were going to improve the AI beyond that which has already been done, which does imply going into the main AI code of the game and tweaking it.

Brad Pickering did most of the AI programming for BZ2.  When he was asked about doing some work on 1.3 AI code, his answer was something to the effect...  "It makes my head hurt just thinking about it".

It AI is a fine balance.  We have all gone through it with service trucks, and turrets, and the consensus dictates that AI should definitly not be too good, as it detracts from gameplay.  The AI can easily be made much better than human players, and that would really ruin the game.

[DarkFox]

Actually mower/spawn, I disagree. Wingflier, if you read back, was saying he'd work on getting AI like zeroangels scout *into* 1.3 via (I assume) a recycler variant as I suggested.
OM jumped in and said "And what do you mean you will work on it? How would that even be possible. ". I thought it was quite clear how it was possible (ZA's scout being a good example), and how he could work on it (putting ZA's scout into a recycler variant).

Having said that, I can see why OM said what he did - wingflier you have come across quite strongly as a fool, mainly for the attitude:

'But the things you are stating still seems like opinion more than facts. (I'm not necessarily saying that they are wrong, just that they are opinions.)
...And I disagree with them... '

The truth is nobody cares a bit what you agree or disagree with, and thus is gets pointless and irritating when you pepper these boards with your opinions and beliefs, after already having demonstrated how ridiculous your beliefs and opinions are ('computer AI is like the agent in matrix, it can never beat a good human').
In short, people have laughed at your opinions and beliefs enough now, and we don't want to hear any more about them. The more we hear about them, the more likely people are to reply in your posts with comments like OM's.
Oh, and yes, OM is a genius.

End of rant, *please* don't reply to my statements with any more opinions or beliefs.