Balance (for APCs)

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

your forgetting that ISDF scouts are faster, more easily controlled and hover better AW, which are 3 BIG factors, scion scouts can *barly* run from isdf scout wheres isdf scout EASILY out-run scion scout
and lets not forget that mini & faf travels faster than plasma --> you need to be VERY close to hit with plasma when running after someone while you can be preaty far from someone to hit him with chains & mini
the reason right now in 1.2 games that good players in scion scouts dont die more to chain than mini is because they just keep jumping around instead of running --> if you run you die, if you stay and fight you warp = you have a small chance of scaring him away from dmg or make him run out of ammo or relize its a waste of time because you warp too much

+ in isdf scout vs isdf scout you can dodge fafs in air, scion scouts cant because of their sluggish manuver
which isnt balanced *at all*

have you seen 4 scion scouts beat 4 isdf scouts? happends about once out of 20 games - seriously... is that balance? dont think so
usualy it ends up 4:1 or 4:0 - VERY rarly 4:2
if the scions got 1 great thug then he might survive - but thats kinda rare too

another factor is scion scouts warp more, thats why its harder for isdf to hit them, but if 1.3 is supposed to fix warp then scions lose their warp advantge too

blink - right now its kind of a game waster

and btw, isdf > scions late game

if scions get blink *all* you need to do is drag the game - which is quite easy for isdf as scions realy have to work hard to pentrate a base (all the isdf has to do is build alot of gts, trucks) and then start building rocket tanks, with an army of rocket tanks you just go forward making blinking warriors useless as they just die so easily and with only 3-4 trucks you heal more dmg than they do with arc, and if they blink in they usualy die - need great teamwork to counter that and by that time the ISDF takes full control of the map --> by the time you kill 1 rocket tank they build two


blink defentaly needs alot of work but so does scions late games


comet - my bad, I'm not that good with speedsÃ,  try 30 or 25 then

seeker - change to 30 secs maybe? or maybe even more? what you guys think?


oh and dont forget to change scion morph time back to 1.2 settings

[Fried]

I'm still going to disagree with you re the splinter PF, it sucks in dogfights, all being even if you had 3-4 guys with splinter in sabres
they would get slaughtered in the dogfights, 3 guys could cover ur assualt group ,
Splinter has to hit a turret or atlas dead on to kill
it in 1 shot, sure it would damage other units but it wouldnt knock them out completely, and you know better than to group units close
together, Even aÃ,  practiced pilot takes time to aim splinter, a good wing should pick him up on radar with ease.

Seen it done many times and indeed done it, countered it and ended up with a massive omega fireball up my ass

OH btw 1.3 scion scouts warp side to side, once i lost my faf i couldnt beat spawn in a dogfight , Take into account i would normally
beat spawn in a dogfight in 1.2 first scout scrap isdf v scion at the time, duno bout now though, kinda got rusty and he's got better eh bud

Also what youve got to take into account is practice time in ships, Most people play isdf more than scion, hence theyre better at flying in them
player skill can affect balance very seriously indeed.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

by the time an assult is arranged you should have two upgrades, and if you are any good spare tanks too, just have them take splinter and change it to mdm after you kill all their ships, you dont even have to fight, drop 1 or 2 splinters along with 3 other thugs go back to base and take mdm, its realy not a big deal

and if you had time you just make extras with splinter for each thug

or just build a couple of splinter mtr bikes

OH btw 1.3 scion scouts warp side to side, once i lost my faf i couldnt beat spawn in a dogfight , Take into account i would normally
beat spawn in a dogfight in 1.2 first scout scrap isdf v scion at the time, duno bout now though, kinda got rusty and he's got better eh bud

true, but if warp is going to be reduced then you would be able to kill him
and even if you cant kill it you can go hit a pool and he cant kill you as easily as you would've killed him if he would've killed a pool

if you catch him hitting a pool he's dead
if he catchs you your probably gonne be alive and might even kill him or get him to run without haul, not vice versa

[Spawn]

but once i got an arc warrior i couldnt kill your empties

what about how arc's firerate is higher in 1.3, (the time the salvo fires isnt counted on the shotdelay anymore) will that matter?

the splinter thing could work with one or two splinter tanks, if the assualt is on base then you can easily run back or use redfield now that it works correctly

scion scouts need something better, a bit more health, ammo and/or a better starting weapon


seeker as a sheild isnt too good, it'll hit your ship if you drive backwards over it while fighting, but if your running it can be annoying
make it shake up a chasing craft?

i've seen isdf vs scion games where the scions go 1:4 or 2:4, but tahts generlly due to teamwork and luring, based on isdf being overconfident

blink needs more ammo usage, its currently way too powerful even if rocket tanks can counter it, and if the scion pilot is good enough then the rocket tanks could easily be stopped with creative blinking/running measures, especially with how ai fires shads

[Fried]

Splinter bikes suck in 1.2 (Never tried them in 1.3 though i imagine ammo would be a problem) dropping crates
takes time and some co'ordination giving the enemy a equal chance, but we are still talking fe here, were as
1.2-1.3 doesnt have hadeans to deal with, hence that splinter isnt needed so much, Splinter was balanced to
deal with FE units and heavy assault units in fe.
If ur fighting isdf v isdf then both teams can use the same tactics, scion v isdf is another matter and im not really sure
how a strong splinter would indeed affect scion , heavy assaults normally involve maulers, archers can attack from high angles.

Ur correct about the warrior- scout fight spawn, however i couldnt kill that warrior of ur's either, due to blink
even when i backed my own sabre or scout up with 5 missile scouts loaded with shads (taking into account
the better ai of 1.3 they still didnt work "Though did stall you some " )
That was why i asked you to play as scion anyhow, knowing full well you are a strong player with scion i wanted
to try counters v scion as i did "we should do that some more"

The only true way to test is to try small alterations and see where we end up after several balanced games.

[APCs r evil]

Actually Spawn that shotDelay being separated from the salvoDelay was changed back later in the Changelog.

[Angelwing]

think you're exagurating there PF, ive played with a scion team vs ISDF many times and whilst ISDF win MORE of the time than scion, it's really not by much most of the time. Yeah plasma travels slower, but does WAY more damage and the way most people dogfight it dosent matter as you just fire in the middle of them and the damage is usually enough to make it even.

As fried said, most people don't play scion - so don't know how to use them properly. If you make them more powerful based on that factor then the experienced scion players could come in and flatten everyone.

Yeah they move slightly slower, but their hitbox is WAY smaller, so it really isnt much of an issue - and they can avoid FAFs simply by moving forward/around them whilst strafing, similar to how you'd avoid stingers or shads, but slightly harder.
Main thing about Scion scouts is they do FAR more damage per hit than ISDF. If you allow them to get a few good shots in, you're as good as dead. Try to run and you're travelling in a perfectly straight line, and I don't know about you but I can EASILY get a few good shots in on an ISDF scout, taking up to 50% their health off in some cases (often killing them)

Scion can OWN isdf if they play right, you've probably just never seen a good Scion commander and set of thugs. heck, get Darkfox commanding and everyone dies.
Also take into account the map changes the balance a lot also. Scions get a far bigger advantage on a map like Haven due to the masses of scrap there, allowing them to quickly get spires up to secure their base and work on teching, whereas they're seriously disadvantaged on a map like Hilo.

[APCs r evil]

Speaking of DF, someone should probably go fetch him.. Anyone know where he is these days?

[APCs r evil]

Alright here's what I've done so far,

(C) Pummel ammo cost reduced to 2 from 3.

(C) Pummel heavy armor damage reduced from 10 to 8.

(C) ISDF Plasma ammo cost reduced from 30 to 22 to match the cost of FE's Plasma.

(C) ISDF Plasma Light armor damage increased from 120 to 150.

Pilot Rocket scrap cost reduced from 30 to 10.

Pilot Grenade scrap cost reduced from 30 to 5.

Booster pack scrap cost reduced from 30 to 1.

TAG Cannon replaced by FE's TAG Cannon.

Comet speed increased from 15 to 30 and turning ability increased.

Added a Comet death explosion with half the damage and blast radius of the impact blast.

(A) Laser range increased from 100 to 120. N armor damage reduced from 35 to 30.

Prox Mine lifespan increased to 45 from 30.

Multi Lock switched with FE's version. I increased the range of the FE version to 180 from 170. I figured it wouldn't be much of a pursuit missile if Arc Cannon outranged it.

Wasp size halved, created a new explosion file, it was using the Prox Mine explosion before. Shot delay reduced so it fires faster but not fast enough to let the Wasps blow each other up.

Blink ammo usage increased, in 1.2 it allowed the user to blink 100m for just 200 ammo, now it needs 400 ammo for a 100m blink.

Static Charge ammo cost reduced to 140 from 200.

Seeker XSI fixed, missiles will now actually hit them. Life span increased to 30 from 15. Now seeks targets within a 75m radius, speed increased to 25 from 10. Damage increased to,

damageRadius = 50.0

damageValue(N) = 400 // none
damageValue(L) = 300 // light
damageValue(H) = 200 // heavy

damageValue(S) = 300 // standard
damageValue(D) = 400 // deflection
damageValue(A) = 200 // absorbtion

from,

damageRadius = 50.0

damageValue(N) = 250 // none
damageValue(L) = 150 // light
damageValue(H) = 50 // heavy

damageValue(S) = 150 // standard
damageValue(D) = 250 // deflection
damageValue(A) = 50 // absorbtion

[Lizard]

The big problem with trying to balance a game like BZ2 is something that you are seeing in this thread , that being the fact that everyone here has a different idea of what constitutes a balanced game . Eventually you may be able to come up with something that everyone agrees on but it will take a long time, a lot of hardwork and many hours of testing to get it right , the testing being probably the most important thing and paradoxically the thing that few people seem to want to help with. Even when you do get a few people working on balance they invariably end up arguing about how things should be balanced, it's a very difficult process and you need to be willing to make compromises in some areas to accomodate the tastes and opinions of others if you are going to have any chance of success, balance is far from easy to achieve you've gotta keep playing and testing and you need a good amount of players or you may aswell give up .

[Angelwing]

any arguments on the plasma stream changes I mentioned? seems good to me to make the scion scout able to kill a pool in one go (barely), and it was in FE I believe

[APCs r evil]

FE did that by adding ammo to the Drone and Warrior, but I could get it to do that with damage quite quickly. I could also reduce the FPS hit when streaming something up close rather easily..

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

it's really not by much most of the time

only because very few ppl actualy KNOW (not how to do, but *what* to do) how to counter a full teched scions

Yeah plasma travels slower, but does WAY more damage and the way most people dogfight it dosent matter as you just fire in the middle of them and the damage is usually enough to make it even.

if plasma travels slower it even has less range, because a smart ISDF dogfighter will back down, not rush the scion scout, all you need is to keep 100 range and go backwards --> isdf hit scions dont
and plasma does same dmg as mini+faf cycles
so you got same dmg, less health to scions, chances of hitting lower for scions - espicely in first dogfight where their fulls dont warp as much as their empties, slower, abit smaller (which doesnt effect anything) and sluggish

Yeah they move slightly slower, but their hitbox is WAY smaller, so it really isnt much of an issue - and they can avoid FAFs simply by moving forward/around them whilst strafing, similar to how you'd avoid stingers or shads, but slightly harder.
Main thing about Scion scouts is they do FAR more damage per hit than ISDF. If you allow them to get a few good shots in, you're as good as dead. Try to run and you're travelling in a perfectly straight line, and I don't know about you but I can EASILY get a few good shots in on an ISDF scout, taking up to 50% their health off in some cases (often killing them)

slightly slower? the fastest way to move in bz2 1.2 is hover sideways - scions cant do that that slightly slower makes a big difrence, espicely on hilly maps, the hitbox is not that much smaller, and faf hit anyways, to dodge fafs you mostly count on your strafe with isdf whereas scions needs forward as well, giving the isdf the advantge of being able to go backwards --> they hit and scions dont... or scions hit barly

ok went over the dmg per sec, its same with cycles + isdf has bigger range for fafs

the few good shots are exaclty 2 shots, in a good case 3 shots, which is exactly 18 health to an ISDF scout
now when an isdf scout chase a scion scout in a straight line the isdf scout do about 40? maybe even 50? and more if its on hilly long terrain?

18 vs 40-50


anyways, I gotta go take a math test - be back in an hour or so to continue 

[Spawn]

i've beaten darkfox when he commanded scion, i was edf

i doubt that darkfox can beat gal(PF)
nobody can stop a walker in ten minutes

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

k, back

heck, get Darkfox commanding and everyone dies.
Also take into account the map changes the balance a lot also. Scions get a far bigger advantage on a map like Haven due to the masses of scrap there, allowing them to quickly get spires up to secure their base and work on teching, whereas they're seriously disadvantaged on a map like Hilo.

me and DF used to play vs eachother, not that much but we did get some games in
I dont want to put words in his mouth so this is from what I remember - it may be wrong, if anyone could get him to post that would be great!!
anyways, me df and hemp talked about FE starting dogfights, hads were balanced with both while isdf > scions, all 3 of us agreed on that...
we tried thinking of a way to make it so scions and isdf are balanced without effecting the balance hadeans already have with the both of them

it was also agreed that ISDF are the superior race, in the short run & the long run, espicely in FE due to laser
ISDF and hads were some kind of balanced, but blast-chain-mdm tank is an overall unit, better at dogfights, and base assults than an FB xares, its also alot easier to get a blast-chain-mdm tank

hads needed multitasking everything to difrent units in order to be effective, which was what made hads weaker than ISDF
hadean thugs needs to do difrent tasks - for e.g, 1 in zeus, 1 in locust 1 in fb xares and 1 in something that kill pools quickly - so if you got 1 weak link the chain is broken, wheres ISDF has 'all-in-one' unit that even if 1 thug is kinda useless at it it doesnt metter much

scions dont get advantges, they only get disadvntges on maps short of loose and small
ISDF get the same 'advantges' scions get with the loose if on hilo you get a spire while I get arm
on maps like haven you will still get spire when I get arm - only much earlier in game
say 10 mins for the loose-less map
and 5 mins for the loose-filled map


@ apcs
looks good, but why increase seeker damage to heavy units? I mean, something like an assult tank shouldnt be effected by a simple small seeker mineÃ, 


oh and I agree with the plasma stream ammo drain change