Balance (for APCs)

[Angelwing]

I loved the FE balance, just yes the EDF laser is ridiculous - An empty Slicer xypos didnt stand a chance vs a Laserscout (unless the scout was running, inexperienced or jumped on)

Yes hadeans were weaker if they didnt work as a team but together they'd be able to outfight EDF.

Besides, this isn't FE (as much as i'd like us to start from there)

Scions have their advantages. You can't say that their late-game shields (esp absorbtion, which reduce Blast damage by 50% for L armor and even more for N with 1.2 balance) arn't an advantage, nor of course the Blink. (which as has been discussed needs to be reduced)
And who could forget early maulers? Sure they can be a lot harder than a hover unit to get in a base, but if they do and the enemy isn't prepared for it - PWN!Ã,  Ã, (the only real thing that gives ISDF such an advantage at baserushing is the way they circle and warp round all the structures, back of the rec, inbetween the fac, etc - making it hard to hit them without damaging your own stuff too)

Whilst I do agree that Scion need to be improved somewhat in some areas, i'm a little worried you'll take it too far - i'd hate to see the reverse of current, where Scion would absolutely squish ISDF. It only takes a handful of small changes to do that.
IMO, Scion SHOULD be weaker than ISDF early on, and SHOULD be stronger later on - I can't even begin to express how boring it'd be to have 2 races that are just as good as each other in all areas all the way through the game. ISDF vs ISDF games got old enough already.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

right now the game is like this

start: isdf dominate
mid game: scion slowly take control and then dominate
ending: isdf slowly take back and dominate

problem is at start ISDF dominate too much so about 70-80% of scion games dont even get to mid games, then becase nobody knows how to deal with tech-ed scions isdf dont get to ending game 70-80% of the time - which is only a metter of simple learning few tactics

as much as FE balance might've been slightly better for other weapons and units that werent used the balance for races wasnt as good, it look'd good because there werent many great players playing daily on FE, sure you got fried, and domakus, and spawn and others, but its totaly difrent when you see all those 3 on the same team with someone like DF cmding them vs another team of players like that, these type of players take the game to new levels

the between races lack-of-balance wasnt that noticed because of that, scions and hads were preaty balanced as far as I know - though I never studied hads that deeply[ on the FE games I played I usualy got a weaker team meaning I cant go hads because of the thugs-dependtion (is that a word? --> being dependant on thugs)], EDF-hads was hmmm not that balanced IMO - but as I said, I didnt study hads that much - laser > slicer and blast-chain-mdm-curtain > FB-slicer  in *every* area exept maybe pool hitting, but then you just send a turret to kill the pool for you and even worse - get laser and get turrets to kill pools and base buildings for you

heck, laser scout > xares  in dogfights, maybe not in head to head if it has slicer

but scout can run from xares, xares cant run from scout
scout can hover and be above xares - xares cant be above scout (well, technicaly it can but its alot easier for the scout to run from that situation)
so in dogfights empty laser scout > xares?

so yes, I know you agreed that laser was over powered, but thats just another thing that race-balance was lacking at some areas

and also, the only way hads could kill an ISDF base was DB hedoux, FB was useless cause of m-curtains, same goes for locusts and zeuses and atlases were easiy killed by a group of blast-mdm tanks
and even in late games - its much easier for the ISDF to assult hads base then hads to assult ISDF base
and ofc, ISDF tech up faster


ehmm what was my point?
oh ya, FE was lacking racial balance besides the laser 

[BZ FeebleEffort]

As everyone has mentioned at least 1x, little changes can make very large differences in Balancing BZ 2.

Changes made to impliment ISDF Vs Scion games, create trouble for the (majority) of games that are played ISDF v ISDF.

Ofensuive vs Defensive changes made to "defang" a over powered weapon may result in a late game stalemate.

lthough i wholeheartedly agree that 1.3 will require a rebalance, I'm just hoping that all these "proposal/ideas" take place once a more final version of 1.3 is out there.

[Angelwing]

I played Hadean a good number of times and don't remember any scout being able to singlehandedly kill me (or even be a challenge) whilst in a Xares, even with Shellgun - Laser just dosent do enough damage to Light armor (and barely any to heavy) to be useful vs them, and only does minimal damage to heavy. Slicer is a lot better vs light and heavy armor, but it's a constant beam so you just can't get as much damage in as you'd be able to with a las...

Hadeans may have weaker equivilants to Sabres but they get wayyyy better asstanks and other units, and can generally build them quicker. Heck the Heudox LS is only 60 and can be aquired before EDF even have an armory up sometimes - you can do some serious damage to their base like that, and the DB one simply OWNS, more so than the FB/Slicer one but then that's hardly bad (do remember that the Fireball has a massive splash though, so firing at the ground infront of the mcurtains tends to work quite well)

Also remember that to get GTs the ISDF need power and bunker. Scion don't need anything but 75 scrap, and in FE hadean dont even need a battery tray. Scion also have that massive advantage in that they can place buildings ANYWHERE, and can do some insanely crazy things - Ever see a Jammer inside a Spire with a popper Archer on top? - Amazing combination. Jammer stops enemies from targeting properly (works great for killing the MDMers) and screws any pools in the area (which in Haven is half the maps pools if placed in the middle), Spire does what spires do and kill things and the Archer (occasionally) fires at bombers trying to kill it. ISDF have NOTHING with those kind of capabilities.

[Spawn]

unless you get a player that really sucks, mdming a spire is cake, and if your outside of jammer range it has no effect
that and the jammer spire doesn't work in 1.3, poper sucks ass, too slow and stupid

laser scout doesn't die vs xares, thats the advantage, you can make him run, even though he costs more, and you wont be killed

hedux ls is rarely used, though it is quite fun.  very fast quite good vs scions, but too low hp and armor once isdf get chain, but before that it can be quite good coupled with an early xares

a hedux's biggest weakness is comet, it can really doom a serviced assault, but a nice way to stop that is a dual headux attack, one with fb omega and the other with dragon, but I've only seen that done right once, not to mention it only leaves 2 thugs to do pools and defend against hovering or splinters or mdm
and a walker>hedux head on, and dual mdm is just amazing at a number of things
but a dragon blast hedux with a pilot that doesn't miss is godly regardless, especially if early

the spike isn't that good, 180m range and can be killed with one splinter if a perfect hit, two half perfect hits.  biggest edge is that you can make a field of them to stop scions, who don't have many good counters to them.

isdf getting a gt is quite easy considering how they win the first doggy and should get the loose, you can always get a few gts up before anything goes terribly wrong, and feed off the loose if it does go wrong

to counter the archer/jammer spire there is always the 2 hornet and a few stock rocket tanks, which will destroy anything the scions do, even at highest tech if used right

[APCs r evil]

Sounds to me like there is a weakness in the Archers. An Archer with Howitzer can match the range of any other weapon, but in 1.2 it didn't do much damage because of the slow fire rate. (Five second delay.) 1.3 doubled the fire rate, highly increasing the strength of the Archer. We should do a test game with the 1.3 Archers soon to see if they are strong enough to reduce the frequency with which a late game stalemate occurs..

[Sonic]

Just my two cents, but shouldn't we wait till the Public Beta 2 is released to the public before we start discussing on changing things?  I don't like this whole moving towards FE balance, sorta makes the patch more of a mod.  We should wait till we played 1.3 Public Beta a bit and see if anything actually needs a balance tweek.

[Spawn]

1.2 needed balance tweake, 1.3 needs more...
not much balance has been changed from 1.3 public, with the exception of red devil's mistakes...

[BZZERKER]

with the exception of red devil's mistakes...

OUCH! ..and he thought I was rough on him.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

I played Hadean a good number of times and don't remember any scout being able to singlehandedly kill me (or even be a challenge) whilst in a Xares

have you ever played vs a good laserer from ZST? me? grass? baked? exe? claw? bb?
I realy dont think so...
and I'm not talking about FB xares here, stock xares / xares with basic arsenal upgrades (which includes slicer)

and spawn hit it right on
exept

the spike isn't that good, 180m range and can be killed with one splinter if a perfect hit, two half perfect hits.Ã,  biggest edge is that you can make a field of them to stop scions, who don't have many good counters to them.

the spike is fine, but two ISDF turretrs do the same job, so yes, it cost more for the ISDF but it does the same job

but they get wayyyy better asstanks and other units, and can generally build them quicker.

huh? better asstanks? how come? FB? or DB? DB is like blast and EDF assult tank has dual mdm
FB can be countered with curtain like the dual mdm which leaves it at blast vs DB
EDF *in addition* can have an AI rocket tank to do a preaty good job, hads cant have an AI hedoux doing a good job - maybe now in 1.3 but not in FE
and if thats not enough, isdf get a dual blast walker, and if it can get 150m with mag you only need 1 shot to kill the hedoux
1 shot with mag, and hads unlike ISDF dont have anything to deflect the mag shot
and as for the building them quicker

I can get a walker in 8:40 mins
although I didnt play much with hads but it took me at least 15 mins to get a DB hedoux out
and then the ISDF easily keep you busy with chain scouts till they build a comet rocket tank and then ur preaty much stuck because 1 DB hedoux cant keep up with a comet rocket tank

anyways, we're drifting completely off topic

I do like talking about balance issues but FE balance has nothing to do with 1.2 or 1.3 balance
this whole thing was brought up to show that ISDF > scions - espicely in 1st dogfight

so, is it agreed that ISDF > scions in starting dogfights and then simply owns the field?

[Spawn]

if scion plasma cannon damage to light increased it should be fine, and plasma stream ammo lowered a bit it should work out
maybe correct the morphtime, not to 1.2 but so it matches the animations

[Fried]

Omega Fireball goes through mcurtain, dragon blast out ranges blast in ass tanks + walkers, i used to counter omega fireball heds that are backed up by
turrets trucks and humans in xares with a wall of scavs, using ai bikes firing over the wall and have plasma (monster range and some push only good on semi static units though) in my walker with my guys in sabres,Ã,  You really had to know that lot was coming though, i tended to sneak some units to the rear of my base
in reserve.

I went on to win with that tactic 3-4 times (Take into account it's rare i commanded)
v hads after i had mopped up their assault group, sure was fun.
However we really are not about to balance FE are we, Fe balance does not apply to 1.3 as we have less species currently
and FE balance had 3 attemps and lots of alterations due to extra units.
Atlas v rckt tanks, turret v the comet, lots of things happen in strat, burst eats bases-turrets, enough already
Re early xares v laser scout, it's the hover scout thats a real pig for the xares to kill.
It's the sharper ai thats got to be allowed for.

Rocketmanx always whooped me when he was in scion v isdf dogfights, I imagine it's a tricky thing
with scion, to most theyre not their most played ship=not enough practice hence they should die more in them
any tweak should be small i imagine.

[Avatar]

Rocketmanx always whooped me when he was in scion v isdf dogfights, I imagine it's a tricky thing
with scion, to most theyre not their most played ship=not enough practice hence they should die more in them
any tweak should be small i imagine.

Exactly...

Also, try to take into account the changes made going to 1.2...Ã,  Ã, I specifically remember both ISDF ship Plasma and the Pummel being weakened because of complaints about "Plasma Sabre Cowboys" and "Pummel rushing".Ã,  Maybe 1.2 went too far...maybe not, just keep it in mind when tweaking them.

I do like to see discussions about Scion vs ISDF but I think the most common comment when this was discussed before was "How many mixed games do you actually see?  Most players prefer an even field, so it's ISDF/ISDF and Scion/Scion.".  Then again, that was pre-FE, meaning there are now many more choices in the mix...

-Av-

[Spawn]

scion vs scion is rarest, mostly for a joke

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

scions vs scions is unplayable... both blink and both dont have a way to counter blink
I have a couple of ideas in mind though