Balance (for APCs)

[Dirty Rooster]

I found scion v scion to be a race for
maulers.
Scion defences (Spire and guardian) are
much weakers v maulers than ISDF defences,
making maulers even more effective here.
I cannot understand a scion v scion game
going for any other strategy unless one side
is dominant and wants to mess about.

I think the starting scion scout v ISDF scout
thing is not a big issue. Some years ago scions
'seemed' to have an advantage, now ISDF
are 'known' to have the advantage.

Balance issues can ONLY be implemented
after the next 1.3 is released. Even discussing
tweaks while using the current public beta will
lead to misunderstandings and could slow down
the real balancing later.
Also I suggest keeping Red Devil out of the
balancing team for a few technical reasons.

[deadscion]

Guys learn from history here a bit. Look over the old archived forum stuff if you can.

Balance is a matter of personal opinion.

Finding something which pleases everyone is impossible.

The only thing you can do with balance is decide on basic levels of fire power for both races and leave it for the user to create their own mod/preferences.

This balance pursuit is useless and never ending, impossible to finish. Somebody is always gonna open his mouth and say ---WAIT we need to fix one more thing!!!!----

Meanwhile folks are waiting for this release while you guys are spinning your wheels on stuff, which in the long run, will not make enough difference to be worthwhile.

Get on with it,,,,,sheesh!!!

[General BlackDragon]

Also I suggest keeping Red Devil out of the
balancing team for a few technical reasons.

lmao...

Rred Devil has been working hard on some tweaks for 1.3 for a long time, I doubt he'll like reading that.
Balancing is very hard to get right, and it does very from person to person, but if most people agree that something is too powerful, it should be toned down. Its a simple majority vote thing. No, not everyone's little suggestions here and there, on this or that, are going to be done. Balance testing is also the longest and hardest testing, things take time.

Sure, scions are weak against THEMSELVES, because they arnt ment to fight eachother par say, they are ment to fight isdf, thats the balance, between Scion and ISDF. They are both ment to have weaknesses and strengths against eachother, not themselves. To make it the other way around would destroy the other balance. Its like ying and yang, you cant really make the scion's defences against maulers good without making them too strong against isdf. Then you would have to make the isdf's weapons stronger or something, and then the isdf would be weak against itself.

Balance cant be done right and perfect, everything has to have a weakness and a strength, it cant all be equal.

[deadscion]

Also I suggest keeping Red Devil out of the
balancing team for a few technical reasons.

lmao...

Rred Devil has been working hard on some tweaks for 1.3 for a long time, I doubt he'll like reading that.
Balancing is very hard to get right, and it does very from person to person, but if most people agree that something is too powerful, it should be toned down. Its a simple majority vote thing. No, not everyone's little suggestions here and there, on this or that, are going to be done. Balance testing is also the longest and hardest testing, things take time.

Sure, scions are weak against THEMSELVES, because they arnt ment to fight eachother par say, they are ment to fight isdf, thats the balance, between Scion and ISDF. They are both ment to have weaknesses and strengths against eachother, not themselves. To make it the other way around would destroy the other balance. Its like ying and yang, you cant really make the scion's defences against maulers good without making them too strong against isdf. Then you would have to make the isdf's weapons stronger or something, and then the isdf would be weak against itself.

Balance cant be done right and perfect, everything has to have a weakness and a strength, it cant all be equal.

Getting it right is a matter of personal opinion this mod has enough built it flexibility for the users to make their own adjustments for balance.

The results of attempting balance only results in a few imposing their personal opinion on others.

The only thing you are going to do with balance is ruin it for somebody else.

So the best thing anyone can do is decide on some basic levels of adjustment and leave well enough alone.

As for GBD he doesn't know squat about this game by comparison to those who really know.

Leave the balance alone guys before you ruin it.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

sorry deadscion but  I'm not too sure you know what your talking about

I know you dont play much but even when you did play did you ever see plasma getting used in 1.2? or a msl scout? what about splinter? walker?
that would be
no, no, no and hmm no again?

balance is not PERSONAL
ppl might like something difrent but balance is not personal, either there is balance or there isnt - as for everyone seeing balance difrently - as was mentioned, there are people who know what they are talking about + (usualy they go togather) majority vs ppl who have no clue what they are talking about

when the player skills advance you can see the real balance, because they use the weapons & ships to their maximum... for example - as you said it "seemed" scions had advantge few years back
but now - almost everyone know how to cycle weapons efficently unlike back then
and lets not forget that many played with auto-level on (myself included) making it much easier for scions to hit

so as I said, when player advance you can see if theres balance or not



oh and FYI guys

gauss gudiens kill scion maulers so easily, each shot does damn nice damage and gauss range on a gurdien is 180
scions are not weak against themselves, they just dont have any ending methods or ways of dealing with blink
shadowers can chase a blinker even if he blinked back to base, the shads will follow him all the way to base --> in a big enough group you can shoot enough shads to make the ship explode in its base after blinking - and thats how ISDF defeat full-teched scions

if we improve scions multilock to be as effective vs blink like shads there might be ending methods for scion vs scion games

[deadscion]

balance is a personal opinion which can never be satisfied.

Guess what is going to happen to all of your time wasting work?

After the release of the 1.3 patch( which by the looks of things will never happen because the ignorant are messing with it), folks are going to take your precious balance adjustments and go straight to the recycler variant process and make their own adjustments anyway.

So foolish ones, it does not matter what your experience is, or what any of you think is right, because the next person to get their hands on it will do what they think is right any way.

You are literally wasting your time on a lot of--- know it all better than everyone else--- bullcrap.

Leave the balance alone fools.

[Angelwing]

Scion are still pretty equal in the starting dogfight (and throughout a lot of the game), it's all down to the fact less people actually PLAY scion and hence have no idea how to effectively control the craft or use the weapon(s). Most try and treat it as if it were an ISDF scout, which 90% of the time will get them killed. fast.

The fact that so few people actually PLAY scion is probably the main reason people think they're so weak now, cause hardly anyone has managed to get good with them (I bet most the 'newer' vets don't even know the scion tech tree, just learnt how to aim and thug as isdf and were therefore considered good)
I'm also betting people used to play Scion a LOT more than they do nowadays.

Almost every time i've seen Scion lose it's because they wern't working effectively as a team, or were going against people much better than them. ISDF scout may be able to avoid most the shots of 1 scout drone, but if he's got another one attacking from the side - countering his strafe - he's toast. ISDF can do that too,yes, but not quite as effectively. (scion scouts are smaller and tend to strafe more irratically, so arn't so weak from the side) - and that's just one example.
As for shads vs blink, all you need to do is hide behind a hill or quickly strafe (which you'd probably think to do being that you just saw 3 or more rocket tanks pointing directly at you and they're gone (assuming they didn't hit the ground at some other point, which is highly likely in most cases)

I've been owned by Scion with vets, and i've owned as scion vs vets (obviously not by myself) - I don't see them as a weak race, or in need of major improvement.

IMO, the main factor that makes ISDF better is their MDMs, able to tear apart base defences extremely quickly with hardly any risk or effort at all (unlike Scions who have to build, place and defend archers whilst they slowly and painfully do their job). I'd either increase the effectiveness of the Archer, or weaken the MDM.

[Spawn]

scions dont need archers, a few arc warriors coupled with blink and maulers take down a base quite well

scion can win with teamwork, but unless isdf has a clue he's doomed

and ds, if you just want to bitch about hoot then go away, if you want to say that we should just leave balance as is, then say it without being an insulting hoot

[deadscion]

scions dont need archers, a few arc warriors coupled with blink and maulers take down a base quite well

scion can win with teamwork, but unless isdf has a clue he's doomed

and ds, if you just want to bitch about hoot then go away, if you want to say that we should just leave balance as is, then say it without being an insulting hoot

No do not leave it as is if it needs work. Decide some basic adjustments and leave it at that.

I am saying fine adjustment of balance is a waste of time since the user will ignore such things in favor of their own preferences in the recycler variant files.

The balancing attempt of FE was a near disaster since the same objects were used by the AIP files in MPI maps.

The result was a balance good for some(but not all) in TeamStrat and bad for most playing MPI.

You folks are about ot make a similar mistake and I fail to see why you don't understand that.

[APCs r evil]

Couple things,

(1) Different weapons can't be used in recycler variants because of the weapon list in the factories. They would have to turn them into a different race to get different weapons in the list without altering the stock races.

(2) I think we are only trying to make certain things work up to par with most other things here, not "fine" balance adjustments.

[deadscion]

So,,,, some adjustments are not avalable in the recycler variants. Most everything is still adjustable by the user/usergroup.

The point still stands and if you are not trying to make fine adjustments( which amounts to nothing more than somebody's personal opinion) then I will quietly shut my big mouth and say Have At It.

[Fried]

Truly i played a lot of MPI and balance wasnt something that ever concerned me in that area.
Gdammit ur fighting ai units FFS, Like theyre gona lose in the end nomater what.

PF people could cycle weps 5 years ago fine, skills truly havnt increased that much at all
and if anything there are a lot fewer highly skilled players now than there was back then.
Perhaps we should lock this topic until the final is released, then we can really bitch at each other
and get nothing done

Or indeed perhaps i should just play Battlefield 2 more and chill out n have fun.
Now that sounds rational to me.

[spAce]

Good to c that u have talked about blink in good resolution. I agree with you; make it spend more ammo.

Another thing that i didnt encounter in this discussion is mauler loose, whitch is only 25.

[General BlackDragon]

balance is a personal opinion which can never be satisfied.

Guess what is going to happen to all of your time wasting work?

After the release of the 1.3 patch( which by the looks of things will never happen because the ignorant are messing with it), folks are going to take your precious balance adjustments and go straight to the recycler variant process and make their own adjustments anyway.

So foolish ones, it does not matter what your experience is, or what any of you think is right, because the next person to get their hands on it will do what they think is right any way.

You are literally wasting your time on a lot of--- know it all better than everyone else--- bullcrap.

Leave the balance alone fools.

hmm, im starting to think lizard was right about you,...

[spAce]

This balance pursuit is useless and never ending, impossible to finish. Somebody is always gonna open his mouth and say ---WAIT we need to fix one more thing!!!!----

AHA !
I would like to see scion used more in strats. The reason why scions are sort of "dropped out" is a balance issue !
You can learn how to spire walk in few days, but it takes couple years to learn how to setup good "working" def against scions. Usually only way to beat scions as isdf is to go for an very agressive and early base hitting or direct rec rush. isdf team often loses motivation to play against blinked warriors, yes, it is boring to fight against targets that u can only harm to near death state or against targets that u cannot escape from.

Isdf and scion might seem to be very well balanced if u set ai against ai (no blink and no working rec rush), but when it comes to human's ability to use (cycle) multiple weapons, scions leave isdf behind.


I consider scion overpower to be a bug cause scions are used in strats only after agreeding that spire walk is not allowed. Think about the noobie strats and new players that come to play their first bz2 games, how do they live along with the spire walking ?