Balance - since I missed the last topic

[Dirty Rooster]

So as I see it there are three (of course there are more)
nice modifications to try out first ;

Nerfed Blink, either charge-up/delayed trigger
or a big ammo cost.

Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Shadower damage to Def shields reduced.

Are we all thinking along vaguely the same lines ??

I mentioned the shadower/Def thing from the
weapn point of view because that is how the
game sees it. If we look at things from just
the sheild point of view we can imagine far-reaching
effects of shield changes, which is NOT the case.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

Having Lived throught he "Balance Wars" discussions of 1.3 private I think (to a degree) DS does have a logical point.

Looking to balance 1.3 now IS Aiming at a moving target. I think the idea that Balance can and will be tweaked is a viable and necessary idea to explore....but balancing now, w/o actually having a fairly relaiable testbed(a newer PB) makes real fixing near impossible.

I'd only suggest that real testing of ideas come along when a real PB 2 is here...THEN real testing of ideas can happen and real progress can begin...When it comes to DS second idea about the difficult in balancing because "everyone has different ideas"...well..that to is a valid concern, however, I'd say once a second PB is out there a accurate assesment of the"state of the game" is determined, and THEN a short list of balance tweaks be expermimented w/ in hopes of TWEAKING 1.3 to find a proper balance...Wholesale revisions of weapon, vehicles, build trees is a recipie for possible disaster. As has been said before, ISDF V Scion Scion vs Scion, Early game vs Late game Offensive vs Defensive balance in (many cases) all consipre to work against eachother.

I am not saying "Don't try to fix it" I'm just encouraging "Tweaking" the second PB  to taste, NOT re-inventing the wheel of BZ 2.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

guys, its not like we're changing the current PB, if anything, APCs is changing the stuff in the private beta (I think) and the private beta and public beta2 (when it'll be released) wont be all-that difrent, and most this balance talk is stuff that was in 1.2 (afterll, almost all the examples and our knowledge comes from 1.2 games --> due to the fact they STILL exist, and will STILL be existed in 1.3 PB2)

DR - Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Shadower damage to Def shields reduced.

nonono

plasma with joggle effect will be terriable!! tanks are having hard time to kill those pesky scion scouts now because of their warp, 2 scion scouts on a tank and he'll have no chance because scions can hit isdf tank almost perfactly without missing
unless theres a way you can only make it joggle vs none armor - and I still think thats a bad idea


shadower damage to def shields reduced? I dont know, I'm still unsure about that - but I guess that could be tested

[Avatar]

As long as this stays on topic and remains a polite debate about the effectiveness of weapon combinations, various weaknesses, and helpful well-thought-out suggestions for change I see no reason to lock it.

That's regardless of how possible or impossible anyone thinks balancing this or any other game is.  To each their own, and some of us like tilting at windmills.

That being said I've already learned some new things, and can see where a newbie or two might also learn from the words of those who came before them...

-Av-

[APCs r evil]

If we decide on a group of changes that we more or less agree on I'll submit the changes to 1.3, as a recycler variant or as a replacement for stock assets, whatever seems best.

[deadscion]

I would highly recommend you stick to a Recycler Variant as the main goal so nothing permanent becomes an oversite others would not approve of.

As wide as opinions are on this subject just as many will disagree with any changes as would agree.

Seems wiser not to inconvenience others no matter how much sense it makes to you.

[Dirty Rooster]

Yeah Phoenix I get your point about the joggle against
Sabres.
Against scouts, since most shots miss the effect could
be to even up the fight. Against Sabres however, I
don't see them suffering from scion scouts at the
moment. Against laser, scion scouts still die.
I say Try the joggle, simply because I'd like to see
the effects and would find it great fun to test.
I am biased of course, since my favourite scion
weapon is the humble scion-plasma.

As for Blink, do we agree that it is a very scionish
special, useful and appropriate for getting around the
map quickly, but we want to see its use as a
fight-escaper REMOVED ??

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

just had another game vs scions, they got full-teched - 3v3 and I was about to own them but then we got AVed

had 6 rckt tanks, a pl-las-mdm-prox tank for myself, both my guys in empty chain (who owned statis shield, on head to head I fought and scared every warrior that fought me [warriors had arc-guass-blink-statis]  they got OWNED by chains)
4 trucks and some chain rats ready to go for their base... we were on 2 pools about 40 mins of the game and surprisngly lost more ships than them most game

even though they had blink we were about to win - after 65 mins ingame though, so they had everyting they wanted, the other com said he had 20 archers he was about to send - but I realy doubt that - maybe though


the more I play vs scions the more I think blink is getting over-rated, sure, its abit unbalanced and annoying to fought vs, but its defentaly not unbeatable-that-got-to-go weapon, it can be countered!

[Spawn]

yeah, chain eats stasis, its really only good early on vs laser and late game hadeans

[Avatar]

Actually the more I hear about "Chain Scouts" the more they sound like the new "Plasma Sabres".  Still, it sounds like chain is too powerful period...  this from a guy who loved the FE 'Heavy Chain'...btw...

One thing to note is that Chain and Shields can be used by AI, while Blink cannot...   

-Av-

[Fried]

Damn fine read indeed, who said balance discussions couldnt be fun 

Hmm currently balance is 3rd on my list, Although i can't give any of them as much time
as i would like

1.Physics
2.Fe
3.Balance

Roosters list looks like a interesting start, When PB2 is out hopefully we can get some good balanced
teams testing out some issues.

[APCs r evil]

Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Or; we could give Scion Plasma a very short lived EMP Stream effect. That way it would make the enemy skip a shot or two every so often..

But since no-one here seems to have the urge to start on this whole thing before PB2, we may as well wait.

[Spawn]

i can help

[Angelwing]

problem with EMP stream is it seems to be very specific in the code (and seems to be a quick hack put together out of the anchor class) As far as I know the duration can't be modified at all, so tweaking it can only be done by changing the ROF of the plasma cannon.

Joggle effect would be okay if it were small and it didn't cause directional warp (as with the Arc cannon, famed for completely ruining your aim) but otherwise it'd make their minigun somewhat ineffective at close range and would likely be too effective at disrupting much larger units.

[APCs r evil]

Actually I just tested it with a "stickTime" of 0.1, and it worked just fine, making the enemy Turrets skip a shot or two (Hard to count at that rate of fire) with every hit. And with such a small window, it will be harder to mess up the timing of the slower firing weapons.