Balance - since I missed the last topic

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

Guardian should be back to 45 as they are stronger and I like the idea of scion scout costing 45 vs 50 for ISDF and rattler 40 vs 45 Guardian

Guardians > ISDF turret

soo, yes

and I think it'll be a mistake to make turrets any better before we can see the new physics

[Red Devil]

 Turrets can only target one thing at one time, right?  So why are turrets attacked by only one unit?  While the turret is shooting at one unit, it should be getting hit from behind by another.  Send in a decoy to get the turret's lock and then nail it from behind.

[Zero Angel]

That's a fairly effective way of knocking down turrets with scouts in PB1. One guy circles the formation while the other two kill the distracted turrets. I believe that pb1 turrets are perfectly effective, however if they are made any more accurate, then this tactic wouldn't work very well since at least one thug would be lost.

I would support an algorithm that prevents skill-less predictable moves (like wobble kills) and rewards skill and unpredictability; I have actually mimicked that behavior in 1.2 by tweaking the turning speed and AI aiming params of the turrets to overshoot its aim and then correct the aim. The wobbly behavior made it humanlike and prevented predictable maneuvers. Sadly, I no longer have that ODF, but at least it proved to me that something like that is very possible to do in 1.2. 

[Red Devil]

 I'll give it a whirl.

Turrets at 40/45, Scouts at 45/50?  How about increasing the custom costs/times a bit instead?

If there's just one thing that BF2 (Battlefield 2) has taught me, it's the importance of teamwork.  If you want to play lone wolf, you can, but it's much more effective playing with a cohesive squad made up of members with multiple capabilities.  I think what's the best is when you're on a squad and you're not even communicating via TS or text, but *everyone* is doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done and you are sweeping the opposition aside like dust.

I guess that's another factor in overall balance that needs to be considered.

[APCs r evil]

Turrets at 40/45, Scouts at 45/50?  How about increasing the custom costs/times a bit instead?

Slow down Red, we haven't even decided on anything yet. Except that stock Guardians should cost 45 scrap again.

[Red Devil]

We all havent decided anything yet.  I'm just *asking* for input.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

I'm still puzzled by the headlong dive into the balacing adventure w/o having a working beta?...PB 1 is NOT the current beta, so why don't u see what the PB 2 is like then work from there?

Don't take this wrong...I applaud everyone for their civility (something sadly lacking in the closed beta) and thoughful ideas....but It just seems to make sense to actually have a playable beta that EVERONE Knows, before saying 'I'd try this" or "I'd try that".


When it comes to the actual FIXING again I'd urge everyone to work in small steps (perhaps 1 unit or even 1 weapon at a time) befoe proposing wholesale changes and then testing, w/ the "Change big fix later approach" how can you tell what really made something work well. ie, just change the cost of a gaurdian and then play a few games...see what impact the cost change has....the made ODF changes....Something along those lines.

[Fried]

Several of the posters here are on the beta squad Wardog,Hence were working with a
version thats close to final.
About those turrets, they suck in PB1 im amazed that anyone thinks theyre ok.
Problem is if they get tweaked much at all they may become overkill very easily.

Currently though i don't think we should be playing with balance, it all seems a unco'ordinated mess
to me, I'd rather just try annd get the Physics as good as we can with what we have available.

Finish the physics, get the release out and then have a balancing forum with set goals-threads
or we may just lose the plot here.

[Red Devil]

 We're pretty darn civil in the closed beta, WD.  Sure, we have bones of contention, but the pack is strong.  That Avatar's kind of a troublemaker though. We all know how *he* is.   

I want - and I'm sure all of you want too - is to bring more people into the BZ2 community, because, as we ll know, BZ is unique and the best engine out there and more people need to discover it.

What I'm afraid of is tailoring it to make stock vet-centric.  When we balance it, will our personal biases get in the way?  We all have our own personal styles and preferences and so we will all naturally tend to put more emphasis on those areas.  I'm guilty of that myself and have recognized it.

I'm also afraid of affecting Mods.

So that's what variants are for.  I'm sure that lots of variants will be made over time.  I can see each of us making our own personal variants and the ones that are played the most will be the ones that are the most fun.

I think we'll need to make Easy variants for new players (powerful weapons, easy AI), Intermediate variants for intermediate players, Hard variants for those who want a challenge, and Insane ones which provide - not insane weapons -  but minimal weapons and hard AI.

[Spawn]

yeah, civil now that a large portion have left

you can throw two or three scouts against a turret, but then you are wasting scrap and people, and then the people who killed the turret are open to attack from the other team, allowing another turret to be placed back there and you get all the loose.  if you can get the loose from empties fighting, or even from a constant attack on your base it can give you an enormous edge in the game, you dont need pools if you have a steady stream of loose from the other or even your team.  in bf2 it doesnt matter where you die, sure, getting across the map takes time but you can respawn with your squad if they are still alive, but in battlezone if you die in the enemy base you could do more damage then good, for not only are you depleating your own team's recources but adding to the other team's.

increasing/changing custom costs/times wont do much.  turrets are left with mini almost always, with chain and laser they could be outranged, and if isdf gets arm they are jsut as likely to drop a chain from the armory then using shads

[Red Devil]

 Good ponts as always there, Spawnster.

Okay men, I've been working on Blink a lot and have it fixed.

What I'd like your input on is how far is too far to blink and how far is not far enough.

[APCs r evil]

Fixed? I was not aware that it was broken...

[Red Devil]

Whatever.

[Avatar]

Nonono, it's

"Whut-EVAH"

Put a decent pause where the dash is, and drag out the "AH" part of "EVAH" a bit...

I have a 16 year old neice so I KNOW what it sounds like...   

***

I would like to see unit performance as close to 1.2 as possible SOMEWHERE, even if it's a Recycler Variant, so that anyone (Vets or whoever) who depends on 1.2 will be satisfied with 1.3.

***

(Troublemaker, eh?  I'm going to have to up the Golem count in my "RedDevil" script...)   

-Av-

[Red Devil]

I know the Blink news comes as bad news to those who use abuse Blink, but, hey, so much the better.  The less B&B's we have in BZ, the better, right?  They'll either learn to "play nice" or stay with it in 1.2.  Nooo biggy.

To those of you who want Blink fixed, I need your input. We can't reveal the inner workings of it yet except to say that it works and it works well.  I just need input on the distance for now.

More Golems? Noooo! 

Whut-Evuh!  How's that?