Battlezone Universe

You and all people in the world may say who is god?Well,Im thinking that god is probaly great great grandfather of jesus.God may have once good friend satan then later turn into crook or mischief.He called him satan.That is what i think!Nobody ever knew who is god and satan.God didnt created earth.The universe created itself by accident.Am I right or close enough?What about mose wand the magic on river turned into red as bloody right?Hmm,They found truth about bloody river as fact the rare red alge bloom posion to all peoples.The rockbed still shows scar red line.I believe they are extraordiny people with incredible intelligent mind.People in biblical years are not really smart because they dont know what is it.They all said in history channel tv last few yrs ago.

wtf lol stole my topic, kinda. Ok lemme see uh..

To your responses of of the river turning red. NOW, remember, just because the river turned red and science can explain it, does not mean it wasn't by God or  miraculous. What most people do not get is, not everything God does, is used with his specific power. When you pray to get healed, your not gonna get shined on with a ray of light that will instantly heal you. Your gonna get healed by a smart doctor with earthly means. God may have guided that doctor to you, or in this case,  be got all those "alge" to bloom.

To the rest i have 3 letters wtf?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2006/09/Debunking-The-Exodus-Decoded.aspx

Still cant believe some one does all that work to disprove something lol

QuoteWho is God?

I'm not telling...

QuoteWho is God?

ME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Nah. There is no god.

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 14, 2009, 12:09:36 PM
To your responses of of the river turning red. NOW, remember, just because the river turned red and science can explain it, does not mean it wasn't by God or  miraculous.

Where is your proof that this river ever turned red at all? Did you get a time machine and see it with your own eyes?

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 14, 2009, 12:09:36 PM
When you pray to get healed, your not gonna get shined on with a ray of light that will instantly heal you. Your gonna get healed by a smart doctor with earthly means.

If there was a supreme being, the shining ray of light is exactly what would happen if you pray to be healed.
Because it is supernatural and therefore illogical.

QuoteME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Well your not doing a very good job of it!
(Runs off muttering to himself and looking for his deity dispatching weapon)

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 14, 2009, 03:00:33 PM
ME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Nah. There is no god.

Where is your proof that this river ever turned red at all? Did you get a time machine and see it with your own eyes?

If there was a supreme being, the shining ray of light is exactly what would happen if you pray to be healed.
Because it is supernatural and therefore illogical.

1. Yeah there is, i mean come on, no natural force could have designed the ingredients for Cheese. Cheese is the best example of God.

2. Where is your proof that it didn't turn red, did you get a time machine and see that it did not with your own eyes?

3. No, a supreme being would not, through that process of the longer healing, not only is what you wanted granted, he also could have you go through that journey to get stronger with him and learn some lessons Disney style

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 14, 2009, 03:00:33 PMIf there was a supreme being, the shining ray of light is exactly what would happen if you pray to be healed.
Because it is supernatural and therefore illogical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aEMFVNJY_8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht-LmPawgpA&feature=related

I'm Christian. Certainly dont show it enough.

Rays of light originating from all over the sky isnt what its all about...

WOW, if there is a God he has a pretty damn good sense of humor... Cheesepuffly jsut got completely proven wrong :P

QuoteWho is God?

Haruhi Suzumiya of course. :P

God is just a hacker with the root password to the Universe.

Oh, also, The Internet Oracle.

VSMIT.

Quote from: VSMIT on March 15, 2009, 12:27:05 AM
God is just a hacker with the root password to the Universe.

Oh, also, The Internet Oracle.

VSMIT.

I wish  :roll:

Quote from: Warfreak on March 14, 2009, 07:07:14 PM
WOW, if there is a God he has a pretty damn good sense of humor... Cheesepuffly jsut got completely proven wrong :P

How...?

Pascal's Wager:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Quote from: Red Devil on March 15, 2009, 11:34:28 AM
Pascal's Wager:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

And thats one of the reason i believe in God, i mean i truly believe He is there, but i have nothing to loose even if He was not.

Except an eternities salvation...  :-P

...?

HEAVEN!!!

...?

Thats kinda what i said.

If im right, which i know i am, i get that, if im wrong, then i dont loose anything.

Well, I think I will award Sonic 1 point for actually coming up with a name, even if it was a cartoon character.  :-D

But basically the philosophical/theological level of this discussion has not risen above what I would expect from a primary school religious education lesson. Quite disappointing really.

God does exist! in the minds of billions of humans on this planet. That makes it a very powerful and potentially very dangerous force. Question everything you have been taught! If a judgemental God does exist, It will not forgive people who behave like stupid sheep! It gave us powerful brains for a reason. Seek the truth with every means available, with your eyes your soul and with science!
Believe what is, not what you are told to by those who simply seek power over us.
Creation is vast beyond our imaginations, We have altered our little bit of it to the point where it may fail us soon. God will not save us, unless we make it do it with our own hands and minds and mouths.

Heaven is a LIE!

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 15, 2009, 04:56:13 PM
...?

Thats kinda what i said.

If im right, which i know i am, i get that, if im wrong, then i dont loose anything.

You don't lose anything?

You will lose heaven if god isn't real...

QuoteCreation is vast beyond our imaginations

No it isn't. Our imaginations are far more epic than reality. The existence of religion proves this.

QuoteNo it isn't. Our imaginations are far more epic than reality. The existence of religion proves this.

It simply shows how small some imaginations are.

There are those who don't believe that God would allow Satan to exist.  They say "How could a benevolent all-powerful being allow true evil to exist in a Universe they created?"

The most interesting answer I've ever read to this is that God/Satan, or more basically Good/Evil, are one and the same entity and what we describe as Good and Evil are the two opposite poles of this being.

Think along the lines of a magnet, where (other than in exotic physics) there has to be a North and South pole for any magnet to function.  You can also think along the lines of electricity, where it doesn't exist without a flow between positive and negative charges.

***

I, personally, can't look at the Universe without seeing the hand of God.  I have my doubts as to orthodox views, meaning I don't think he's an old man with white robes and a long white beard, but I don't see how the order of the Universe could have arisen spontaneously from primordial chaos.   My human mind also has trouble figuring out where the primordial chaos came from, as like most humans I need a 'start' to things to be comfortable.

That same human mind has come to the conclusion that God is a being the likes of which we poor humans can never even glimpse a small part of the totality of.  The nature of a being that can create a cosmos is such that we can't even understand the smallest part of it's nature, any more than an amoeba could figure out the smallest part of a human being.

So my answer is "God is a being so far above us that we'll never understand even the smallest part of Him, despite any religion's attempts to do so..."

-Av-

No.

If there was a god, with our intelligence and logical ability we could understand him/it perfectly (unlike the amoeba which obviously lacks this).

There is also no such thing as chaos. There is only order, and the entwining of seperate forms of order.

Good and Evil can have no material existance as they are merely perspectives, and therefore can only ever reside in the thoughts of super-intelligent living beings like ourselves.

We are the pinnacle of creation. There is nothing above our level... only below it.


Why do people wish into existance these unexplainable and ridiculous mystical elements when we ourselves are truly at the top of the ladder? Its almost like we don't like being the best of the best after all. Maybe we don't want the responsibility.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PM
If there was a god, with our intelligence and logical ability we could understand him/it perfectly (unlike the amoeba which obviously lacks this).

I doubt that. With your intelligence and logical ability, can you understand any one given person perfectly? Remember, God is [would be, might be, ect] a being, not something inanimate, like a rock or a chair. How can we understand God when we can't even understand other people?

Quote from: Avatar on March 15, 2009, 06:55:00 PM
There are those who don't believe that God would allow Satan to exist.  They say "How could a benevolent all-powerful being allow true evil to exist in a Universe they created?"

The most interesting answer I've ever read to this is that God/Satan, or more basically Good/Evil, are one and the same entity and what we describe as Good and Evil are the two opposite poles of this being.

Think along the lines of a magnet, where (other than in exotic physics) there has to be a North and South pole for any magnet to function.  You can also think along the lines of electricity, where it doesn't exist without a flow between positive and negative charges.

I like to think of it this way: your magnet analogy is great, but only for our perception of good and evil. Good would exist if evil did not and evil if good did not. Consider it this way: one definition of evil is an absence of good. Take a piece of paper, for example. That's good. Now punch a hole through it. What's left in the hole? Nothing -- that's evil.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 15, 2009, 07:41:17 PM
How can we understand God when we can't even understand other people?

Understanding other people is easy.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
Understanding other people is easy.

Yes and no. But understanding someone else perfectly? That's something that no one has ever done.

Define perfectly.

Well here's a thought completely out in left and right field at the same time. A few friends and I have a mythopoeia going on. If you do not know what that means, google it. :P In these stories we have a particular character who goes by many names but commonly is called MM who for many reasons is God. The catch here is that while we agree he is God, we do not make clear if he created reality or if reality created him. In fact, if you look at our time line, you will fine massive paradoxes of his existence. The idea though is MM is basically an 'avatar' of reality itself. So reality is inside him while he is inside reality. This gets more and more complex but makes an interesting "God" for our stories. We almost never reference him as God but as I said, for all basic purposes, he could be considered God (even if he/she/it is unperfect).

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:59:17 PM
Define perfectly.

You understand how every fiber of them works, you are able to predict their response to every question, their follow-up questions, what they want to hear in response to those follow-up questions, when they'll be hungry, when they're sad, when you know every tidbit of possible information about them and synthesize it constantly, and what they don't know about themselves. When you understand the wants and desires that someone has and doesn't know yet. When you can understand someone with the same compassion and depth and breath of knowledge that God understands someone, you'll understand them perfectly.

And I guarantee you, never once in the history of humanity has that happened. Except Jesus.

(And if you don't accept Jesus, then fine. But you get my point.)

EDIT: I'm sorry that sounds weird. But I think it conveys my point: in my view, the whole point of a God is that we can't fully understand him. If we could, then would he really be a god?

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 15, 2009, 08:09:51 PM
You understand how every fiber of them works, you are able to predict their response to every question, their follow-up questions, what they want to hear in response to those follow-up questions, when they'll be hungry, when they're sad, when you know every tidbit of possible information about them and synthesize it constantly, and what they don't know about themselves. When you understand the wants and desires that someone has and doesn't know yet. When you can understand someone with the same compassion and depth and breath of knowledge that God understands someone, you'll understand them perfectly.

Sounds a bit like stalking someone to me. :wink:

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 15, 2009, 08:09:51 PM
in my view, the whole point of a God is that we can't fully understand him. If we could, then would he really be a god?

Um... Y-eah he would. What relevance does our understanding have on whether god is a god?

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PM
f there was a god, with our intelligence and logical ability we could understand him/it perfectly (unlike the amoeba which obviously lacks this).

Intelligence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8) and logical ability (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwvrje8uySo).

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PM
There is also no such thing as chaos. There is only order, and the entwining of seperate forms of order.

The universe is constantly moving from order to disorder (chaos). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(order_and_disorder))

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PM
We are the pinnacle of creation. There is nothing above our level... only below it.

You're at the zoo. You end up in the lion's cage with the hungry lion inside. The lion is still below your level, right?

If there is nothing above us, where is our sixth sense?

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PMWhy do people wish into existance these unexplainable and ridiculous mystical elements when we ourselves are truly at the top of the ladder? Its almost like we don't like being the best of the best after all. Maybe we don't want the responsibility.

US President Bush was at the top of the ladder, too. Would you like to be in his current position?

--

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 07:56:04 PM
Understanding other people is easy.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 09:02:11 PM
Sounds a bit like stalking someone to me. :wink:

" :wink: " is right.

--

I'm just pointing out that when you're debating on issues like this (that are never, ever, EVER going to be resolved) you want to keep an open mind. Try to understand what other people are thinking. Don't be so "I'm perfect, period".

Believing in God has never gained me anything, but I haven't lost anything either. Don't quote me on this and shoot back "YOU WASTE YOUR TIME" or something along those lines. I don't consider my time wasted at all. I could think that creating a Battlezone II mod by yourself is a giant waste of time, but I still respect the work that you put into it and the time that you spend to make the game a better place.

--

Quote from: Avatar on March 15, 2009, 06:55:00 PMSo my answer is "God is a being so far above us that we'll never understand even the smallest part of Him, despite any religion's attempts to do so..."

Agree.

Believe what you want.

Just an observation, but I have found that vain people tend to not like believing in God.   Even Lucifer - who was in heaven an in the presence of God - thought he was better than God, bringing about this situation.  But, hey, each to their own.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 05:29:28 PM
You don't lose anything?

You will lose heaven if god isn't real...

Well thats not how i looked at it but yes.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 15, 2009, 09:02:11 PM
Um... Y-eah he would. What relevance does our understanding have on whether god is a god?

I meant "Would we really use the term God to label a being we could fully understand?"

Our understanding has no direct influence on God's being, rather, it is a reflection of ours.

I've always looked at our lives as gifts. There is a certain proper way to give a gift. When you give a gift to someone you care about it is then inappropriate to mention the giving every time you visit. We have zero communication with any being that may have created us. Therefore my conclusion is that if there is a being that is giving out life then he is happy enough for us to say thank you for the gift. And is not a Indian giver.

A Christian Southern Babtist is what I was brought up as. And during the times as a young boy my parents told me a tale to help me believe that the greatest sin to "God" was to not be satisfied with what he had given. The story was something like: God has created all the angels and humans and given power to some angels. One such angel had been given almost as much power as God himself. His name was Lucifer, and when he asked for more power God became angry, since he had given Lucifer so much, and yet he was still unhappy with what he had been given. In his anger God cast Lucifer from Heaven.
The lesson I was supposed to learn was not to be unhappy with what we have in life so that God may find a place for me in heaven. This lesson can also be used to predict how some humans will react to unhappiness also.
Now that I'm older I do as MrTwosheds has said and question everything. I'm sort of on this kick of questioning all religions. It brings to mind the Mideastern people of nowadays who say the Holocaust did not happen. I mean I do not think that all life on this planet began once I was born. This is something for a psychologist to help you with. But for Southern Babtist to be the only correct religion, this would have to be the case. Since it is not, then can we say the oldest religion is the most correct. No we can not. Can we say that all Christian religions are good enough? Jesus allowing himself to be crucified even though he had enough power to protect himself makes him a martyr, that is a mideastern thing. So can we say Islam is correct then.
I'm pretty sure "God" gets the point no matter what religion you have been taught/choose or have forced on you. You are saying thank you for the gift. Now no further communication is needed once you have done this, that's how proper of a friend he is to us. So enjoy the gift, play Battlezone II.

Quote from: Axeminister on March 16, 2009, 09:02:57 AM
Jesus allowing himself to be crucified even though he had enough power to protect himself makes him a martyr, that is a mideastern thing. So can we say Islam is correct then.

Actually, in the Islamic tradition, Jesus never died on the cross. Essentially, Jesus is the prophet second only to Muhammad. And, since Allah is all-powerful and Jesus is a prophet of Allah, doing His work on earth, to have Jesus die would mean that Allah would have failed. But Allah cannot fail, so the Muslims believe that Jesus was taken up from the cross before he died.

Funny how every religion can agree that Jesus was actually a very just man from what we know of his adulthood.

(Don't bring up the whole "well, whats to say Jesus was 'blah' as a child" thing, cause obviously thats a whole other badly recorded thing of history)

Quote from: Warfreak on March 16, 2009, 11:29:37 AM
Funny how every religion can agree that Jesus was actually a very just man from what we know of his adulthood.

(Don't bring up the whole "well, whats to say Jesus was 'blah' as a child" thing, cause obviously thats a whole other badly recorded thing of history)

Jesus´s childhood is not gone into in great detail. Infact the only once do we know of something that happened then.

There WERE a bunch of Gospels that talked about Jesus' childhood though, and not all of them fondly. They weren't adopted as cannon.

In the Bible there is only one instance of something happening during
Jesus's childhood. Which would be when he went to some place and amazed the priests.

Right: There were a bunch of stories circulating about Jesus' childhood though. There were dozens (hundreds? well, a lot) of books people had written about Jesus' life, but only four made it into what we call "the Bible." There was a fifth that almost made it -- I think it was the Gospel of Peter, only it had Jesus doing something really weird at the Resurrection? Something like that -- but it was really close.

Well as i said, in the bible.

Do you know of these specifically?

I've never read any of them, but I own a copy of the Gospel of Judas.

EDIT: I've never read any of them that aren't in the Bible :p

Other gospels that got rejected: Gospel of Peter (it got rejected for inklings of docetism, the idea the Jesus' body was only an illusion), Gospel of Mary (there are a bunch of these), Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Joseph, Gospel of Thomas... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha#Infancy_Gospels

I just got the Book of Jasher and read the Book of Enoch in December and the Lost Books of the Bible.  Very illuminating.

Interesting, i knew books got rejected, but never knew them specifically.

They should make a bible of rejected books heheh.

Ill check on them if i can get one.

Why do they look up the sky and say that is god up there well,those people think there is a god up there and watch them down above the clouds.I feels that they were wrong.The god is actually an earth or sky or sun same way the pharaoh king tut worship to only one god is sun.If they see rays of sun break thur the clouds signal to people that im god with voice.Those people invesigate mystery and strange among and above us.Earth is natural and unexplain mystery power of force created by earth.They afraid of lava.They think satan live down there with bubble of hot gas.Is that a common sense?Jesus is natural born healer.

They worship the sun and and planets and stars because they were/are ignorant and belong to the Ross Perot School of Theology ("If I can't see it, touch it, feel it, it doesn't exist!").

And some people's egos are so big that they can't imagine or accept that God lives, who is perfect and more powerful than themselves.

I think most city slickers tend not to believe in God.  They're constantly surrounded by man-made things and noises, but the very first thing they'll cry out when getting mugged/killed is, "Oh God! Help me!".  Out here in the country, away from all that, it becomes very apparent that God lives.

Ummm.... I live less than a mile south of the biggest city in the state, and I only know two atheists in real life.  I don't think it's city slickers, I think it's just people close to the ocean.  Too much salt water on the brain.  :-P

Ah, to be young again when the world was simple, and there was so much less grey to life...  the young tend to think in black and white, and don't know enough to know how little they truly know.  It's such a shame that youth is wasted on the young...   :)

Some very old words from someone who understood people pretty well:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

The universe is more vast and varied then our minds can comprehend, IF you believe the universe is infinite.  Our minds are, despite certain sci-fi movies, very much finite and have proven limits.  I think anyone who could grasp the totality of the universe would go mad, or be so changed by the knowledge that they'd be as good as mad...

Now picture something, someone who could MAKE such a thing...

And what if making the universe wasn't even his real job?  What if our entire existence is just, say, God's hobby?  Like a really big and complex ant farm...    :)

One final piece of advice from an old timer...  learn to understand just how tiny, how insignificant, how truly sad and pathetic, stupid and selfish, humanity is.  That way you'll truly appreciate it when you meet someone truly good.  :evil:

-Av-

Does you believes in a god or not? (avatar)

On the other hand, learn to appreciate how precious and amazing life - your life - truly is.

Star Gate has the whole universe is infinite and that the knowledge of the ancients (the knowledge of the universe) is too large for a mere human to handle. Ascending (evolving) into energy beings on a higher plane of existence allows you to have this knowledge though.

I believe in the inconceivably we call god, I just don't agree with exclusively any one view.

I love Stargate... and Macgyver... wonder if its Mr. Anderson...

I love cheese

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 23, 2009, 07:26:34 AM
I love cheese

So do I, though rather exclusively to 10 particular types.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/cheese.php

Wasted my time too, guess i should be shot for actually reading the whole thing.

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 22, 2009, 06:56:54 PM
Does you believes in a god or not? (avatar)

Fire up the wayback machine, Sherman...  back to page 2.

Quote from: AvatarI, personally, can't look at the Universe without seeing the hand of God.  I have my doubts as to orthodox views, meaning I don't think he's an old man with white robes and a long white beard, but I don't see how the order of the Universe could have arisen spontaneously from primordial chaos.   

So yes, I believe in a supreme being.  One who has an eye for beauty, and a hell of a sense of humor to boot.   :evil:

-Av-

Scientists announced today that they'd found GOD.  The bad news?  She's 8' tall, black, and pissed...
-Robin Williams-

Did anyone here ever see time bandits?

I saw one this morning sneaking around the back of the house.

Bastards!

Quote from: Sonic on March 15, 2009, 08:01:42 PM
Well here's a thought completely out in left and right field at the same time. A few friends and I have a mythopoeia going on. If you do not know what that means, google it. :P In these stories we have a particular character who goes by many names but commonly is called MM who for many reasons is God. The catch here is that while we agree he is God, we do not make clear if he created reality or if reality created him. In fact, if you look at our time line, you will fine massive paradoxes of his existence. The idea though is MM is basically an 'avatar' of reality itself. So reality is inside him while he is inside reality. This gets more and more complex but makes an interesting "God" for our stories. We almost never reference him as God but as I said, for all basic purposes, he could be considered God (even if he/she/it is unperfect).

I propose to you that MM is not an avatar of reality, but a reflection of everyone who contributes to your mythopoeia.  If you all lived on an island together, MM might just appear spontaneously.

Me, I just don't believe in God - I know our God, our Father, lives.

Why?  How?  Because love exists.  And I'm not talking about that cute, smarmy, mushy, sissy love.  I'm talking about the love of friends and brothers that makes a man re-enlist to go fight - and die - with his brothers in the blood and filth and mud and dirt and disease and horror that is war.

I'm talking about the love of a perfect stranger rushing into a burning building to save a perfect stranger or the love a perfect stranger who dives in a freezing river to save a a perfect stranger or his granddaughter, then drowns.

I'm talking about the love of a friend jumping into a fight to defend his friend - even if his friend is wrong.

I'm talking about somebody messing with your family - even the ones you don't like much - and you going nuts on them.

All logic would tell them or you to stay safe and not risk their lives, but people do it every day.

Also, I live up in the mountains and I can see (some of) the beauty of this world every day and night and know that all this beauty cannot exist just by accident.

Also, I've heard a baby laugh and I've seen and talked to a woman and a man full of grace and charity and humility.

I've also seen what the lack of love in people will do and the pain it causes.

Without love, this world would just be a world of cuthroats.

So, to all those who believe that God is just a creation of their imaginations or a desire for a need for order or "illogical", are you willing to bet your life on it?

So... beautiful.

So... wrong.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 24, 2009, 08:35:43 PM
So, to all those who believe that God is just a creation of their imaginations or a desire for a need for order or "illogical", are you willing to bet your life on it?

Yes. And the lives of my family and friends.

Quote from: Spawn on March 24, 2009, 07:40:00 PM
I propose to you that MM is not an avatar of reality, but a reflection of everyone who contributes to your mythopoeia.  If you all lived on an island together, MM might just appear spontaneously.

Interestingly you hit close to home with another quirk with MM's existence. While being the avatar of reality, MM has his own 'mind scape' if you would. If you are somehow unlucky and find yourself INSIDE that mind scape, you will find it bigger than reality itself with several copies of everyone who had, is and will exist in reality there.

whats uhh MM?

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 25, 2009, 07:58:27 AM
whats uhh MM?

Yeah,God made MM hershey candy! :lol:

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 25, 2009, 07:58:27 AM
whats uhh MM?

Exactly, but just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 24, 2009, 08:35:43 PM
Me, I just don't believe in God - I know our God, our Father, lives.

Why?  How?  Because love exists.  And I'm not talking about that cute, smarmy, mushy, sissy love.  I'm talking about the love of friends and brothers that makes a man re-enlist to go fight - and die - with his brothers in the blood and filth and mud and dirt and disease and horror that is war.

I'm talking about the love of a perfect stranger rushing into a burning building to save a perfect stranger or the love a perfect stranger who dives in a freezing river to save a a perfect stranger or his granddaughter, then drowns.

I'm talking about the love of a friend jumping into a fight to defend his friend - even if his friend is wrong.

I'm talking about somebody messing with your family - even the ones you don't like much - and you going nuts on them.

All logic would tell them or you to stay safe and not risk their lives, but people do it every day.

Also, I live up in the mountains and I can see (some of) the beauty of this world every day and night and know that all this beauty cannot exist just by accident.

Also, I've heard a baby laugh and I've seen and talked to a woman and a man full of grace and charity and humility.

I've also seen what the lack of love in people will do and the pain it causes.

Without love, this world would just be a world of cuthroats.

So, to all those who believe that God is just a creation of their imaginations or a desire for a need for order or "illogical", are you willing to bet your life on it?

If everyone who based their morality on god has a view such as yours RD then the world would be...simpler.
But that isn't what happens, people use religion as a way to exclude others or show that they are "wrong", and what I do not understand is how someone such as yourself could not only let these defamations stand unhindered, but actively support them by agreeing with their reasoning.

People can love or hate, hate is just sadder.

Religion, as you say, is just another way for the herd to be rounded up and used for political ends.

Then why didn't you make that distinction earlier?

Belief in/knowing God lives does not imply following a religion.  I wasn't even thinking of religion when I posted that.

You don't need religion to believe in God, but that's what they want you to believe - that in order to believe in God, you *have* to belong to their congregation, which is pure baloney/coercion.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 25, 2009, 01:10:06 PM
Belief in/knowing God lives does not imply following a religion.

Is that supposed to be confusing or something...?

No, I think he was clarifying something.

BBB you must have a sad life, crappy family and no friends if you are willing to bet your life on something you consider to be so stupid.

I am willing to bet my life on the fact that god does not exist!

Don't try and aggravate me, I have been having a hard enough time holding back my almost infinite hatred of the ancient warmongering lie known as religion in this thread.

Don't bother replying as I will not read this anymore.

Denying the other side the ability to speak is a far greater crime then whatever is being said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

BBB, what I am saying is that you don't have to be a member of an organized (or even disorganized) religion in order to believe in God.  "Religion" has done far more harm than good throughout history.

In fact, by your comments and others I have seen through the years, I'll say that religion has pushed far more people away from God than led them to God.

Well said, Spawnster.

I think one of the huge problems people have when it comes to having faith in something is that they think they have to spend their whole life devoting their lives to prayers and going to church regularly. What i said on page 1 or 2, was actually incorrect. I cannot call myself christian because i dont know enough about christianity to say 'yes i believe in this completely, that happened'.

I don't go to church every week, and ive never been of my own accord, and i very rarely prayer at all. Thats because i feel quite out of touch with my morals and the person i used to be. Mainly due to some of the worst life experiences ive ever had to deal with and a couple of certain people in my life that seemto cause me nothing but pain.

What i like to think, is that when you die, you move on to the next place, wether it be heaven, hell or an extra life point. I heard on the radio one morning that the idea of 'if youre bad you go to hell if youre good you go to heaven' is not how it works at all. In fact, the priest said that if you truly want Gods forgiveness you will recieve it, but you musn't want it because it gets you out of eternity in hell, you will get it if you generally truly want it.

Frankly, i pride myself on my morals but i know my flaws and imperfections, and i know what flaws and imperfections i can and can't control. Its the ones i can and should control that i dislike about myself. So long as God understands me and who i am (which i believe he does) and that i know my flaws and imperfections are just that, then im strutting through the big purly gates. When i get to that stage, i think God will give me a pat on the back and chuckle about it with me. I don't believe in the 'old man with a white beard stuff'.

Quite frankly, im absolutely scared hootless about death. Sit on the edge of youre bed and think to yourself, im going to have to face a moment one day where my eyes will close and never open. Im going to have to face that alone. Everyone is. Its a terrible thing to live in fear, and i don't understand how anyone can not be scared of something like that. I think everyone wants to or does believe in something after death, they just cant or wont. Believing in this gives me something to look forward to (not that i look forward to dying or anything i aint crazy).

And you know what else? I am solely stuck solid on the fact that this universe did not 'just happen'. My turn to quote someone, but i have no idea who said it.

'You walk down the street and find a watch on the floor. You pick it up and examine it, and you know that this did not just happen, it was created, designed and it has a purpose. The universe is more complicated than any watch, so it MUST have been designed and created'

Making a BZ2 mod is a waste of time. A HUGE one. Hence why you will probably never see mine because theres one phrase that keeps sticking in my mind at the moment 'what is the *Ammo*ing point of creating an ordered array of files that at the end of the day, are only a bunch of 0's and 1's?' That and the fact that theres currently 50 people who might even be arsed to play it.

Ive probably contradicted myself a few times here but its late, im tired and i don't see why i should have to write anymore to justify my beliefs. F you if you dont like it.

Everything I make is experience or portfolio usable. Note I don't make many ODFs or effects. I made models, textures, and code (c++).

Quote from: Red Devil on March 25, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
BBB, what I am saying is that you don't have to be a member of an organized (or even disorganized) religion in order to believe in God.  "Religion" has done far more harm than good throughout history.

In fact, by your comments and others I have seen through the years, I'll say that religion has pushed far more people away from God than led them to God.

Well said, Spawnster.

Thats the point, most religions are not religions they are money scams. People try to get you to go to their church instead of another one, but its the same God.

Infact, my old church has its own set of politics, and that makes no sense.

You dont need a religion, as long as you know the truth, thats all.  But there is general religion and specific religion. Theres Christianity and branches of it. If you believe in God, and believe Jesus died for your sins, your a Christian  if you believe in something a bit more than that, your something else.

Besides, i also see it as "Why take a chance?" There is either a god (now i think its my God but yeah) or there is not. No middle no nothing. You lose nothing in by believeing if your wrong, then meh, if your right then YEAH! Besides, every other form of the universe beginning is all "Chance" and "Unknown" with me its God.

How many of you become god? There are many even thousand of them are gods. Im god of dog (Canis Major)

Quote from: hybirdisdf on March 25, 2009, 07:36:52 PM
How many of you become god? There are many even thousand of them are gods. Im god of dog (Canis Major)

Try again.

Maybe everything fits together so well because the pieces are so small :P
Or if anything was different it all would have fallen together differently.
Death unites us, you don't die alone but just follow the same path everyone else did before you.
The path may lead off a cliff to nothing, but just keep walking...

I'm a non practicing... something... Christian something... I think...

By now, without the rhetoric of church and everything else, my view has evolved into a pretty complex amalgamation.

sounds complex. i dont even know what that word means :P, but i think i know what you mean, and im on the same sort of borderline...

i make BZ2 mods for personal satisfaction and its taught me quite a lot about the internal workings of games. i would LOVE to finish my mod to the level i picture it, but i don't think it will happen. it would, if there were say twice as many people on the boards as there are now. i guess time will tell.

QuoteQuite frankly, im absolutely scared hootless about death. Sit on the edge of youre bed and think to yourself, im going to have to face a moment one day where my eyes will close and never open. Im going to have to face that alone. Everyone is. Its a terrible thing to live in fear, and i don't understand how anyone can not be scared of something like that.

Fear of dying is hard-wired into most concious beings.
Think about it differently, your evolving DNA sequence is %millions of years old, possibly more. The death you think of is no more than the ending of 1 little game run by that ancient DNA program. Before that game started, you were dead, once it is over you will be dead again. The ancient program may or may not continue, our body's know this, that is why (most) Parents will sacrifice themselves to save their children, their body's know what is most important, even if the concious mind does not. Life is in the body, the concious mind just a game it plays.

A Direct contradiction of most religions teachings. But an undeniable fact.

If the game never ended... what would we become?

Quote from: Red Devil on March 25, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
BBB, what I am saying is that you don't have to be a member of an organized (or even disorganized) religion in order to believe in God.  "Religion" has done far more harm than good throughout history.

In fact, by your comments and others I have seen through the years, I'll say that religion has pushed far more people away from God than led them to God.

Well said, Spawnster.

What I said applies equally to all viewpoints.  If you don't consider the fact that you could be wrong constantly then your own viewpoint is just as unjust.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 02:20:43 PM
What I said applies equally to all viewpoints.  If you don't consider the fact that you could be wrong constantly then your own viewpoint is just as unjust.

Theres wrong and there is SOL. If you dont believe in God and you die then well, i pitty you. IF you do believe and there actually is a God and it ends up there is not, well you lost nothing. Christians have nothing to fear, if it does not come true we loose nothing, if it does come true we gain alot. Evolutionists ah not so much.

If you don't even listen to the other point of view because it differs from your own then you are assuming that you are perfect and there is no possible flaw in yourself.  If you are indeed as perfect as you assume yourself to be, then I propose you take the next logical step and declare yourself a god.

If you want to continue making ridiculous statements then my only counter is to match your level of absurdity.  I suggest that you step off your cloud and open your mind.

Quote from: Spawn on March 24, 2009, 07:37:24 AM
Did anyone here ever see time bandits?

"What's the matter, Master?"

"Well, it's just for a moment there..."

"Yes, Master?"

"I felt, almost, good..."

"I'm sorry Master!"

"It'll pass, it'll pass..."

Classic.  :)

-Av-

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 03:26:14 PM
If you don't even listen to the other point of view because it differs from your own then you are assuming that you are perfect and there is no possible flaw in yourself.  If you are indeed as perfect as you assume yourself to be, then I propose you take the next logical step and declare yourself a god.

If you want to continue making ridiculous statements then my only counter is to match your level of absurdity.  I suggest that you step off your cloud and open your mind.

You mean meh? 

If so, i say i know the truth not that i am perfect. I listen to the other viewpoint, my current one makes the most sense in my opinion.

Those statements are only ridiculous because YOUR viewpoint is different than mine.

If your not talking about me, then well forget it said that.

*Shakes head*
Christianity is only a religion by some definitions. If religion is any belief in a supreme being, then yeah, Christianity fits. If religion is a set of rules, a code that must be followed to earn your way to heaven, then Christianity is NOT religion. What the Bible teaches is that we have all sinned. Don't try to deny it. We all do things like lie, swear, hate, insult, and worse things. Therefore we fall short of the glory of God. That is our fault, and nothing we can do can change it.
Therefore, since God is a just God, we must be subject to punishment
But God is also a God of love, and he loves us so much, he sent his only son (who was part of himself due to being part of the trinity), to die an extremely painful death, to take the punishment we were subject to, so that justice was fulfilled and we could also be saved.
But God's greatest gift wasn't even the death of his son. His greatest gift was choice. So he doesn't make us automatically go up to heaven. We have to choose. Repent and be saved. It's that simple.
It is true that religion, even Christianity, has been used for dastardly things in the past. But to do so it has always been twisted to fulfil that purpose. As for religion doing more harm than good; if there is no belief in God, then there is no need for a belief in morals. As a result, nothing is wrong. Therefore, people have no conscience about murder, rape and any other wrong thing. It is no concidence that the decline in Christian teachings has been followed with the incline in crime rates, abortion, etc.
If you need evidence for the existence of God, go to www.creation.com
Search in the FAQ's. If you cannot find what you are looking for, leave some feedback.
I, also, would be happy to answer any questions. Visit www.freewebs.com/darkplanet01 and comment in my forums or blog, asking a question or even just going on a rant, and I will happily reply.

BTW, those who point to evolution as there basis for belief in no God, remember that as a fighter jet can't assemble itself from a pile of scrap, even given millions of years, the simplest single-celled organism - far more complex than a fighter jet - cannot assemble itself from bits of chemical waste.
Also, evolution requires the increase of genetic data, which has never been observed to happen.

To cheesepuffly: (there was an ly at the end of your name and this is he only time I ever noticed it, lol)

You don't actually know what my viewpoint is.  I know what yours is because of you preaching it.  If you want to project your morals onto others think about if they want them first.

You do have a lot to lose if you are wrong, the small amount of time you have here would be wasted.  You also should not assume your own time to be worthless, or it will be :P

Quote from: cheesepuffly on March 26, 2009, 05:00:17 PM
You mean meh? 

If so, i say i know the truth not that i am perfect. I listen to the other viewpoint, my current one makes the most sense in my opinion.

Those statements are only ridiculous because YOUR viewpoint is different than mine.

If your not talking about me, then well forget it said that.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:05:43 PM
You do have a lot to lose if you are wrong, the small amount of time you have here would be wasted.  You also should not assume your own time to be worthless, or it will be :P

The time would not be wasted. Christianity doesn't deny us fun. Even the time spent going to church and praying would not be wasted, as even if God were not there (which is a flawed belief in the first place), praying and attending church makes you feel better at the very least. And our feelings have a tremendous impact on our lives.
In fact, I'm pretty sure Christians are generally more happy than non-Christians.
Christians also give more to charity, are far less likely to become criminals, and generally treat people better.

To Darkplanet01:

A fusion reactor assembled itself and made our sun.  Seeing as how we did not yet make one of those but we have made a fighter jet I would assume it to be more complicated.  Sure, you can just say "god made the sun" but I could say "chaos made the sun" and we would both have the same amount of proof.  This does not make either of us right or wrong, it just distracts from the topic at hand.

Anyway, I propose that the christian moral system is actually more primitive then an atheists morals.  Let me explain before you stop reading or bring up the idea that any number of people you have or have not met posses morals.  The idea that you do good because someone will slap you on the wrist when you do not is a simpler version of the religious view, but it possesses a similar quality.  The need to have something looking over in order to prevent evil, or the idea that if nothing was going to punish you later then there would be no reason to ever do good.  The moral atheist, on the other hand, does good in order to do good, not because they expect the action to be reinforced or the opposite action to later be punished by some higher power.

The key distinction is you believe people to be naturally evil and will only do good when forced or otherwise coerced to.  I believe that people are naturally mild mannered and do good to do good.  Or did you mean something else when you said, "if there is no belief in God, then there is no need for a belief in morals"?


On a slightly different point, the problem that many have with organised religion is each one believing that it is solely right, and because it is right they have the duty to impose every doctrine on others.  This defies what you yourself have stated was the greatest gift of god, choice.  I will not provide specific examples to this because I believe that these words are simple enough on their own, but if you require a certain number please state that and I will provide as such.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 26, 2009, 06:14:01 PM
The time would not be wasted. Christianity doesn't deny us fun. Even the time spent going to church and praying would not be wasted, as even if God were not there (which is a flawed belief in the first place), praying and attending church makes you feel better at the very least. And our feelings have a tremendous impact on our lives.
In fact, I'm pretty sure Christians are generally more happy than non-Christians.
Christians also give more to charity, are far less likely to become criminals, and generally treat people better.

Once again, I cannot refute anecdotal evidence, as it has no bearing.  If it makes you happier then it makes you happier, but you cannot simply say everyone does this, because you will be wrong if one person doesn't.

Quote from: mrtwosheds on March 26, 2009, 02:04:43 PM
Fear of dying is hard-wired into most concious beings.
Think about it differently, your evolving DNA sequence is %millions of years old, possibly more. The death you think of is no more than the ending of 1 little game run by that ancient DNA program. Before that game started, you were dead, once it is over you will be dead again. The ancient program may or may not continue, our body's know this, that is why (most) Parents will sacrifice themselves to save their children, their body's know what is most important, even if the concious mind does not. Life is in the body, the concious mind just a game it plays.

A Direct contradiction of most religions teachings. But an undeniable fact.

If the game never ended... what would we become?

This is not an undeniable fact.
1) If the Earth were millions of years old, there would be no land, as it would have all eroded away.
2) Life is not a computer game. Life is the existence of us on Earth.
3) Death is in fact simply the ending of our Earthly bodies and minds. The most important part of us, the soul, leaves and goes on to the next life. If you haven't accepted God's salvation... things aren't going to end well. If you have, you are in paradise for eternity.
4) Before that 'game' started, we were not 'dead', we had not been created yet. When we are dead our bodies and minds no longer function, but our soul transcends to the spiritual realm. The time before we were created, we did not exist, body, mind and soul. Death in Earthly terms is the inexistance of simply our mind and body.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:05:43 PM
To cheesepuffly: (there was an ly at the end of your name and this is he only time I ever noticed it, lol)

You don't actually know what my viewpoint is.  I know what yours is because of you preaching it.  If you want to project your morals onto others think about if they want them first.

You do have a lot to lose if you are wrong, the small amount of time you have here would be wasted.  You also should not assume your own time to be worthless, or it will be :P

Funny, people usually notice the y, not the L though.

Im not saying i know your view point, im saying its different. If it was not the same we would not be in this would we? I mean, atleast from what you have said and my human understanding thats how i see it.

I preach it because well its the truth. Im stating, not er um pushing.
Im putting the bread on the table, im not forcing it down your throat.

Trust me, Christians have fun. Tons of fun, relative non God related things happen at my church. Every tuesday we have a meeting, adults go one place, teens go somewhere else, and kids go some were else. At the teen place, its 20 minute bible study, 50 minutes playing various games i brought. (cause everyone elses is crap)

If you think the only thing that happens in church is God related your wrong.


(EDIT)

@At spawns 1st post

Primitive is not necessarily bad if it were then knives would not be used to kill people.

We do it because we want to do good. Set a good example to that the next can follow.
So atheists are moral but Christians or some god believing person is not moral?

Basically what your saying is if you saved someone out of the good of your heart, or for a reward, but the person is still saved, thats wrong? (and by saved i mean from some kind of earthly danger)
If that were true, kids would not get many gifts....


And as i said before, religions that believe in God or a god KNOW atheists don't.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:28:07 PM
To Darkplanet01:

A fusion reactor assembled itself and made our sun.  Seeing as how we did not yet make one of those but we have made a fighter jet I would assume it to be more complicated.  Sure, you can just say "god made the sun" but I could say "chaos made the sun" and we would both have the same amount of proof.  This does not make either of us right or wrong, it just distracts from the topic at hand.

Anyway, I propose that the christian moral system is actually more primitive then an atheists morals.  Let me explain before you stop reading or bring up the idea that any number of people you have or have not met posses morals.  The idea that you do good because someone will slap you on the wrist when you do not is a simpler version of the religious view, but it possesses a similar quality.  The need to have something looking over in order to prevent evil, or the idea that if nothing was going to punish you later then there would be no reason to ever do good.  The moral atheist, on the other hand, does good in order to do good, not because they expect the action to be reinforced or the opposite action to later be punished by some higher power.

The key distinction is you believe people to be naturally evil and will only do good when forced or otherwise coerced to.  I believe that people are naturally mild mannered and do good to do good.  Or did you mean something else when you said, "if there is no belief in God, then there is no need for a belief in morals"?


On a slightly different point, the problem that many have with organised religion is each one believing that it is solely right, and because it is right they have the duty to impose every doctrine on others.  This defies what you yourself have stated was the greatest gift of god, choice.  I will not provide specific examples to this because I believe that these words are simple enough on their own, but if you require a certain number please state that and I will provide as such.

Chaos does not make anything. What you have said didn't did not sway from the fact that design requires a designer. That is simple logic. If logic does not count as proof then nothing has any proof.
When i said without God there is no need to believe in morals, I meant that if there is no supreme being to define right and wrong, then right and wrong do not exist. Therefore, atheists cannot 'do good to do good' because there is no such thing as 'good'. And we do not do right because we believe someone will slap us on the wrist, we do right because we know God loves us and since we love him, we will try not to do anything that would displease him.
I do not believe people to be naturally evil. In the beginning of time, everything was perfect including people. But people, us, chose to do evil, misuse the gift of free will that God gave us.
As for religion believing they are solely right, we are simply choosing a belief system. Contradictory ideas can't both be true. If someone is charged with murdering someone at a bar, and they say they could not have because they were at home at the time, and someone else says they were not at home, they can't both be true. There is only one truth. And because the evidence supports creation, I'm going with that viewpoint.

To me, that God lives is not a viewpoint but a fact.  It'd be the same thing as asking me if the sky is blue or if water is wet and trying to convince me otherwise.  I'm pretty good at listening to the viewpoints of others.  I am - as are you - also free to either accept or reject those viewpoints. :-)

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 02:20:43 PM
What I said applies equally to all viewpoints.  If you don't consider the fact that you could be wrong constantly then your own viewpoint is just as unjust.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:05:43 PMYou do have a lot to lose if you are wrong, the small amount of time you have here would be wasted.  You also should not assume your own time to be worthless, or it will be :P

A belief is not wasted time to the believer. Telling a Christian that they may be wrong in their beliefs is almost an insult. You refute ideas and thoughts. You can't refute beliefs. This is because the believer is basing his/her argument on what he/she believes to be fact and has probably done so for a very long time.

Belief ≠ Idea or thought

There is a difference between telling someone, "I believe the storm will hit us." and "I think the storm will hit us."

Quote from: Feared_1 on March 26, 2009, 10:59:23 PM
A belief is not wasted time to the believer. Telling a Christian that they may be wrong in their beliefs is almost an insult. You refute ideas and thoughts. You can't refute beliefs. This is because the believer is basing his/her argument on what he/she believes to be fact and has probably done so for a very long time.

Belief ≠ Idea or thought

There is a difference between telling someone, "I believe the storm will hit us." and "I think the storm will hit us."

And in my case, I base what I believe to be fact on the available evidence. And telling us we are wrong in our beliefs could be classified as an insult in some terms, but in many cases it is taken as an opportunity to witness to somone.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 26, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
*Shakes head*
Christianity is only a religion by some definitions. If religion is any belief in a supreme being, then yeah, Christianity fits. If religion is a set of rules, a code that must be followed to earn your way to heaven, then Christianity is NOT religion.

What that definition of religion implies is that Christians believe in a heaven in the clouds with little angels flying around and everyone worshiping God for all eternity. If you look at Jesus' teachings, he emphasizes that the Kingdom of God is "at hand" -- implying that it's not about a heaven up in the clouds, but about life on Earth.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 26, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
As for religion doing more harm than good; if there is no belief in God, then there is no need for a belief in morals. As a result, nothing is wrong. Therefore, people have no conscience about murder, rape and any other wrong thing. It is no concidence that the decline in Christian teachings has been followed with the incline in crime rates, abortion, etc.

That's also not entirely true either -- Immanual Kant devised a moral system without the use of God. In fact,  Kantian morality is more strict in terms of behavior than Christian ethics in many several instances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

"at hand" meant that the Son of God was standing in front of them.

Then why is the subject of the sentence "The Kingdom of God" and not "The Son of Man?"

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 27, 2009, 11:59:00 AMWhat that definition of religion implies is that Christians believe in a heaven in the clouds with little angels flying around and everyone worshiping God for all eternity. If you look at Jesus' teachings, he emphasizes that the Kingdom of God is "at hand" -- implying that it's not about a heaven up in the clouds, but about life on Earth.

This made me laugh.

First of all, there is more than one religion in the world. The definition of religion doesn't include "Christian anything". It includes ALL religions.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. It seems to me that your logic is waaaay off. The Kingdom of God means heaven, so I don't know where you get this life on earth thing.

(Thesaurus: "at hand" = Imminent. In other words, the Kingdom of God is coming. In other words, the end of the world is coming. This being the time when Jesus comes back the second time to rapture his church.)

Because it is by the Son of God that you reach the Kingdom of Heaven.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 27, 2009, 12:57:17 PM
Then why is the subject of the sentence "The Kingdom of God" and not "The Son of Man?"

Quote from: Feared_1 on March 27, 2009, 02:53:10 PM
This made me laugh.

First of all, there is more than one religion in the world. The definition of religion doesn't include "Christian anything". It includes ALL religions.

Exactly -- I obviously did not phrase that right. What I'm saying is that by defining a religion as a code that leads you to heaven, you automatically exclude belief systems that do not acknowledge a heaven as implied by the definition. One interpretation of Christianity does not define heaven as that thing in the sky; many people see heaven as what will come to pass when all the world is converted: the resulting Kingdom where everyone lives Christian ideals. That is one common interpretation of Jesus' "at hand."

Dictionary:

at hand,
a.    within reach; nearby; close by. -> this Earth. Heaven is on Earth.
b.    near in time; soon.
c.    ready for use: We keep a supply of canned goods at hand.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 27, 2009, 03:58:12 PM
Dictionary:

at hand,
a.    within reach; nearby; close by. -> this Earth. Heaven is on Earth.
b.    near in time; soon.
c.    ready for use: We keep a supply of canned goods at hand.

I believe the second definition there is the one we're looking at.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 27, 2009, 03:58:12 PM
Exactly -- I obviously did not phrase that right. What I'm saying is that by defining a religion as a code that leads you to heaven, you automatically exclude belief systems that do not acknowledge a heaven as implied by the definition. One interpretation of Christianity does not define heaven as that thing in the sky; many people see heaven as what will come to pass when all the world is converted: the resulting Kingdom where everyone lives Christian ideals.

"Heaven is an afterlife world". I'm pretty sure that every dominant religion to ever exist had an afterlife consisting of two sides: paradise and torture (excluding those who believe in reincarnation). So really no one (except for Atheists) is left out. Heaven is not in this universe. It is a completely different place. Because of this, you can't really give it an "up in the sky" direction.

Christians have paradise (Heaven) and torture (Hell). There is a little trick to this, though. It is by the GRACE of God that a Christian is saved. Not by a "code" that has to be followed. Jesus died for our sins, therefore we are saved. Those who do not believe this are not. It's that simple. No codes required.

You're thinking of the New Jerusalem when you say "what will come to pass when the world is converted". That's paradise, but not the Kingdom of Heaven (if I'm correct... Revelations is a confusing book).

I have a slight feeling none of you understood my point...

So I will explain it...when I am less tired.

Av: I didn't get the end of time bandits, I laughed, but was there some deeper meaning to the parents exploding?

QuoteIt'd be the same thing as asking me if the sky is blue or if water is wet

:-) The sky is not blue. Diffused sun light filtered by the atmosphere is perceived as blue, by human eyes.
Water is not wet. Your skin feels wet when it gets water on it. :-)

Its tempting to respond to some of the other opinions here, but I am just going to return to my state of mild despair at just how easily young humans can be brainwashed into believing such total rubbish.

Just one little point, Its only humans who go to heaven/hell? Right? presumably all the other beings just get what I said we all do? Right?

Not a clue...

But im 19, so not that young, and no one around me has these beliefs. Quite the opposite.. no brainwashing here.

Quote from: Spawn on March 27, 2009, 10:13:48 PM
I have a slight feeling none of you understood my point...

So I will explain it...when I am less tired.

Av: I didn't get the end of time bandits, I laughed, but was there some deeper meaning to the parents exploding?

Not that I know of...  it's never good to analyze a Terry Gilliam work too deeply.

If anything I thought it sortof meant the kid was going off the deep end, like the ending of Total Recall.  Leaves you wondering if it's just in his head or really is reality.

***

Back on topic, I find it almost a universal truth that the young are less spiritual and more cynical when it comes to intangibles than older people.  I myself was more Mr. Spock than Dr. McCoy when younger, but am now probably 1/2 Spock and 1/2 McCoy.  (less concerned with logic and facts and more open to there being more to the Universe than can be measured.)

The only real proof I can offer on my behalf will come with age and experience.  I hate to keep playing the old man but it's true, you'll one day have experienced enough odd things to make you really doubt that the scientists have anywhere near the whole picture. 

-Av-

im 15, but the universe points too God. My parents do not force this on me but yeah.

Quote from: Feared_1 on March 27, 2009, 09:17:28 PM
You're thinking of the New Jerusalem when you say "what will come to pass when the world is converted". That's paradise, but not the Kingdom of Heaven (if I'm correct... Revelations is a confusing book).

Yes, Revelations is a confusing book, but it is a book with a historical context and written for a specific purpose. None of us (I'm pretty sure) are John The Apostle (by tradition, the author of Revelations), but Pope Benedict XVI recently released a statement on this very topic.

Quote from: Pope Benedict XVI http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20995The seer of Patmos, identified with the apostle, is granted a series of visions meant to reassure the Christians of Asia amid the persecutions and trials of the end of the first century.

And yes, I do know that many Christians are not Catholics and therefore do not listen to the Pope. Take it or leave it.

So, if you're stuck underwater, that funny feeling of drowning is just the way your mind perceives it at the time?   :-)

Quote from: mrtwosheds on March 28, 2009, 05:11:34 AM
:-) The sky is not blue. Diffused sun light filtered by the atmosphere is perceived as blue, by human eyes.
Water is not wet. Your skin feels wet when it gets water on it. :-)

Its tempting to respond to some of the other opinions here, but I am just going to return to my state of mild despair at just how easily young humans can be brainwashed into believing such total rubbish.

Just one little point, Its only humans who go to heaven/hell? Right? presumably all the other beings just get what I said we all do? Right?

QuoteSo, if you're stuck underwater, that funny feeling of drowning is just the way your mind perceives it at the time?

Well I am fairly certain that fish don't perceive that particular experience the same way at all.

Just one little point, Its only humans who go to heaven/hell? Right? presumably all the other beings just get what I said we all do? Right?
I still want a response from those of faith on this.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:28:07 PM
Anyway, I propose that the christian moral system is actually more primitive then an atheists morals.  Let me explain before you stop reading or bring up the idea that any number of people you have or have not met posses morals.  The idea that you do good because someone will slap you on the wrist when you do not is a simpler version of the religious view, but it possesses a similar quality.  The need to have something looking over in order to prevent evil, or the idea that if nothing was going to punish you later then there would be no reason to ever do good.  The moral atheist, on the other hand, does good in order to do good, not because they expect the action to be reinforced or the opposite action to later be punished by some higher power.

Again, it depends on which atheist morals: hedonism, the idea that you should do whatever is pleasurable, is technically a moral system and can exist in atheism, but I would say that that system in particular is more primitive than atheist morals. However, that is not to say that all hedonists go around hacking and adulterating and being gluttonous and killing people for sport; hedonists can also take pleasure in service to the poor and in art, etc.

Quote from: Spawn on March 26, 2009, 06:28:07 PM
On a slightly different point, the problem that many have with organised religion is each one believing that it is solely right, and because it is right they have the duty to impose every doctrine on others.

The Catholic Church doesn't think that it has the sole mandate on divine revelation nor the only correct understanding of God. It does recognize that it has the most complete understanding, but also that other religions may have truth to them as well.

I personally don't think so, seems a bit too biased for some(thing?) apparently inheitably just to do.

You have those that act and those that think. (Instinct vs. Will, im not saying free as 'aparrently' its not anymore).
Can't punish a lion for surviving, but you can reward a person for not killing for the hell of it.

I've seen dogs with more honor, righteousness, and integrity in them than a lot of people ever had or will have.

Which is exactly why I feel not only humans go to heaven... I do feel only humans go to hell however.  :evil:

"All dogs go to heaven"  :-)

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 27, 2009, 11:59:00 AM
What that definition of religion implies is that Christians believe in a heaven in the clouds with little angels flying around and everyone worshiping God for all eternity. If you look at Jesus' teachings, he emphasizes that the Kingdom of God is "at hand" -- implying that it's not about a heaven up in the clouds, but about life on Earth.

That's also not entirely true either -- Immanual Kant devised a moral system without the use of God. In fact,  Kantian morality is more strict in terms of behavior than Christian ethics in many several instances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

What I meant by what I said was that there was no basis for morality based upon atheism. It is well and truly possible to have an atheistic moral system, but it has no basis.
Oh, and pointing to wikipedia articles isn't the most accurate method. Many people have failed, or lost marks in, school tests, assignments etc. due to using wikipedia. It is a very inaccurate site.
And when Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, he did not mean life on Earth was supposed to be heaven. Watched the news lately? The deformed world that we live in couldn't be classified as 'heaven' by any means. What Jesus meant could be that God's Kingdom is coming 'soon', that he was standing right in front of them, and he was the key to the Kingdom of God. It could be many other things than what you pointed out.

Quote from: mrtwosheds on March 28, 2009, 05:11:34 AM
:-) The sky is not blue. Diffused sun light filtered by the atmosphere is perceived as blue, by human eyes.
Water is not wet. Your skin feels wet when it gets water on it. :-)

Its tempting to respond to some of the other opinions here, but I am just going to return to my state of mild despair at just how easily young humans can be brainwashed into believing such total rubbish.

Just one little point, Its only humans who go to heaven/hell? Right? presumably all the other beings just get what I said we all do? Right?

Humans are the only ones with souls, therefore they (we) are the only beings that transfer into the spiritual realm after death.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 28, 2009, 07:52:41 PM
Humans are the only ones with souls, therefore they (we) are the only beings that transfer into the spiritual realm after death.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 28, 2009, 07:49:36 PM
Oh, and pointing to wikipedia articles isn't the most accurate method. Many people have failed, or lost marks in, school tests, assignments etc. due to using wikipedia. It is a very inaccurate site.

It is less inaccurate than you think. Granted, we aren't talking about a "scientific" article, but still: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69844

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 28, 2009, 07:49:36 PM
And when Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, he did not mean life on Earth was supposed to be heaven. Watched the news lately? The deformed world that we live in couldn't be classified as 'heaven' by any means. What Jesus meant could be that God's Kingdom is coming 'soon', that he was standing right in front of them, and he was the key to the Kingdom of God. It could be many other things than what you pointed out.

But he could have. Follow this logic. IF what Jesus meant was that life on Earth was supposed to be heaven when the whole world was converted, then the disciples had a reason to travel and spread the Good News. Why DID they go out and evangalize, anyway? The Jews weren't big evangelicals. They didn't come from an evangelical tradition. The Epistles of Paul can thought of as letters trying to get people to convert to this new offshoot of Judaism. Paul was perhaps the best businessman ever, trying to sell his product, The Way, so that the world could become heaven.

You spread the good news to GET TO heaven, not to convert the world into heaven. I am trying to follow your logic, but its hard to follow when it breaks off and begins elsewhere.

Feared, remember that in this system, heaven isn't somewhere "out there" that you have to you "get to," its something that will be triggered when the whole world believes these things, follows these laws, worships this God, ect ect.

Heaven and Earth are two completely separate things/places.  Heaven and Earth are going to be transformed into a new Heaven and Earth after the millennium.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 28, 2009, 09:04:58 PMits something that will be triggered when the whole world believes these things, follows these laws, worships this God, ect ect.

And that's where your belief contradicts mine.

Think this way: Heaven is not in this universe. It is a completely different plane that is impossible to get to physically within your human lifetime. When you are TAKEN by God, you leave our universe and convert over to the new plane.

The only CONVERSION that will take place is what RD already stated. When the rapture of the church occurs, a new Heaven and a new Earth (New Jerusalem) will take place.

Earth is NOT Heaven. Heaven is eternal paradise. Earth (according to science) is not eternal, therefore making it "not Heaven".

I'm not out to change your belief. I don't know where you stand on the issue. I'm not going to try to disprove something you believe. That is impossible (right MTS and BBB?)

Just to clarify: I never said it was my belief. I don't have a belief on this issue set in stone yet. I just wanted to see if I could argue it slash remember it.

Of course it's possible to disprove something people believe. The word "believe" implies that there's a lack of hard facts and therefore there must be a leap of faith to reach a conclusion. If someone finds facts that directly contradict a belief, and the person changes his view in light of the new evidence, then you have changed his belief. Or destroyed it, since with facts the new idea would not be "belief" but "knowledge".

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 26, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
As for religion doing more harm than good; if there is no belief in God, then there is no need for a belief in morals. As a result, nothing is wrong. Therefore, people have no conscience about murder, rape and any other wrong thing.

But there does seem to be a need for a belief in morals -- we still get things like Utilitarianism and Hedonism and all those -isms that don't call for a belief in God.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 28, 2009, 08:09:35 PM
It is less inaccurate than you think. Granted, we aren't talking about a "scientific" article, but still: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69844

Yes I know it isn't always that inaccurate. Still, thought it was worthy of being pointed out.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 28, 2009, 08:22:55 PM
But he could have. Follow this logic. IF what Jesus meant was that life on Earth was supposed to be heaven when the whole world was converted, then the disciples had a reason to travel and spread the Good News. Why DID they go out and evangalize, anyway? The Jews weren't big evangelicals. They didn't come from an evangelical tradition. The Epistles of Paul can thought of as letters trying to get people to convert to this new offshoot of Judaism. Paul was perhaps the best businessman ever, trying to sell his product, The Way, so that the world could become heaven.

Maybe he could have, but that would contradict other parts of the Bible. Besides, they still had a reason to spread the News. They couldn't let people go about their lives not even knowing that they could be saved. Think of it this way. If we know someone is in danger, and know of someone who can help them if they ask him (pretend we can't save them, which is what its like in the Bible's case), we will tell them about it and ask them to find the one who can help them.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 29, 2009, 12:55:53 AM
But there does seem to be a need for a belief in morals -- we still get things like Utilitarianism and Hedonism and all those -isms that don't call for a belief in God.

People have been made with a conscience from God, that is why we see lawlessness as a bad thing. These -isms we get can only be opinions without God. Believing there is no God, people think of moral codes to go by without needing God. But the thing about these is that they are matters of opinion, rather than actual morals. It is what people believe is right and wrong, but the fact that there are so many different types of these moral codes shows that you can't have a set basis of morals, which means that people chose their own 'morals', making it no different from having no moral codes at all.
And before you point out the different forms of Christianity, I will first like to say that these come from adding on or taking off parts of the Bible's moral code. Not all the adding on is bad (but most if not all is unnecessary (grr I hate that word)), but the taking off is. Changing God's word is a bad idea. My point is that while Christianity has a set right and wrong, atheism doesn't.
Christianity's morals are set down by God. Atheism's are set down by people, and because their are many people, they have different ideas of right and wrong.
Reading back over my post it does seem a bit hard to follow, but I'm tired at the moment so you'll just have to put up with it.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 29, 2009, 12:44:25 AM
Just to clarify: I never said it was my belief. I don't have a belief on this issue set in stone yet. I just wanted to see if I could argue it slash remember it.

Of course it's possible to disprove something people believe. The word "believe" implies that there's a lack of hard facts and therefore there must be a leap of faith to reach a conclusion. If someone finds facts that directly contradict a belief, and the person changes his view in light of the new evidence, then you have changed his belief. Or destroyed it, since with facts the new idea would not be "belief" but "knowledge".

And actually I would have to agree with that. Many conversions of beliefs happen all the time. And if 'believe' implies the lack of hard facts, I don't believe there is a God. I know there is a God.

QuoteHumans are the only ones with souls, therefore they (we) are the only beings that transfer into the spiritual realm after death.

Human supremacism. We are such vain creatures. This attitude is the main force behind the gradual destruction of our world, (or Gods creation if you like).
No doubt, just like God and heaven, a soul is something whose existence we are simply unable to find, prove or disprove and is thus just another clever defensive argument evolved over eons of theological discussion.
Humans are the only ones with souls! what a blind concept and convenient state of affairs that is!
Christianity has become a spiritual dead end, it has evolved to hide the truth and justify its followers willful ignorance of the things it claims to celebrate.

DarkPlanet01, you know you can start a quote, then scroll down through the current page and easily add further quotes to your reply?  I think you can also Merge consecutive posts...

Just pointing this out so it doesn't end up looking like you're posting to yourself...  :)

-Av-

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 29, 2009, 01:57:43 AM
Maybe he could have, but that would contradict other parts of the Bible.

The Bible contradicts itself a lot if taken literally, without an understanding of the nature of the books and their historical places.

Well, I definitely know we all have souls.  Awhile back, I was experimenting with "astral projection" and one day I succeeded and was able to do it when I wanted to after that.

Then one night while I was "just leaving", I saw this dark form "standing" in the hallway that had what I can only describe as a very malevolent presence.  The night light was on, but the shape was darker than dark, so I could see its shape....then it started moving towards my body lying there on the bed just beneath me...   :-o    SNAP!  back in I went.  Never been so scared in all my life (I actually pulled the covers over my and and I prayed)  I've never done it since and never will.  NeverNeverNever.

So, there's no believing for me if the soul exists - I know.

Quote from: Darkplanet01 on March 29, 2009, 02:09:13 AM
And before you point out the different forms of Christianity, I will first like to say that these come from adding on or taking off parts of the Bible's moral code.

I'm not even going to bother with the differences within Christianity. What about the differences between Christianity and the Aztec religion, for example? Those two are certainly both "religions," yet one requires human sacrafice while Christianity abhors it. The Aztecs believed in gods, Christians believe in three Gods in one. (Is that all Christians? Or just most? I'm not sure on all the variations of Protestantism to be honest). They both believe in gods, the Aztecs many and the Christians one. Even looking at the differences in the moral code between the Christians and our Abrahamic brothers, the Muslims, there are stark differences in morality.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 29, 2009, 12:20:18 PMThen one night while I was "just leaving", I saw this dark form "standing" in the hallway that had what I can only describe as a very malevolent presence.  The night light was on, but the shape was darker than dark, so I could see its shape....then it started moving towards my body lying there on the bed just beneath me...   :-o    SNAP!  back in I went.  Never been so scared in all my life (I actually pulled the covers over my and and I prayed)  I've never done it since and never will.  NeverNeverNever.

Good lord..... :-o

Quote from: mrtwosheds on March 29, 2009, 06:23:31 AM
Human supremacism. We are such vain creatures. This attitude is the main force behind the gradual destruction of our world, (or Gods creation if you like).
No doubt, just like God and heaven, a soul is something whose existence we are simply unable to find, prove or disprove and is thus just another clever defensive argument evolved over eons of theological discussion.
Humans are the only ones with souls! what a blind concept and convenient state of affairs that is!
Christianity has become a spiritual dead end, it has evolved to hide the truth and justify its followers willful ignorance of the things it claims to celebrate.

Humans are the ones with souls because we were created special to be God's friends. Christianity doesn't hide the truth at all, it is the truth.

Quote from: sabrebattletank on March 29, 2009, 07:29:43 AM
The Bible contradicts itself a lot if taken literally, without an understanding of the nature of the books and their historical places.

The Bible sometimes seems to contradict itself sometimes, but most of the time it is either due to people's interpretations and other times translation issues.

Feared 1,Were you on high or drunk during that night?

Wait, WHAT?

That was Red_Devil with the eerie out-of-body experience, not me. I just quoted him.

He was the one in the hallway.  That's why he is called Feared_1.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 29, 2009, 12:20:18 PM
Well, I definitely know we all have souls.  Awhile back, I was experimenting with "astral projection" and one day I succeeded and was able to do it when I wanted to after that.

Then one night while I was "just leaving", I saw this dark form "standing" in the hallway that had what I can only describe as a very malevolent presence.  The night light was on, but the shape was darker than dark, so I could see its shape....then it started moving towards my body lying there on the bed just beneath me...   :-o    SNAP!  back in I went.  Never been so scared in all my life (I actually pulled the covers over my and and I prayed)  I've never done it since and never will.  NeverNeverNever.

So, there's no believing for me if the soul exists - I know.

Sounds like a shadow person.

Was it a human outline? Can you describe the figure more?

It had a head and a body, dark as ink.

Were there boobs on it?

I made this avatar for a website that talks about shadow ppl.

Quote from: AcneVulgaris on March 30, 2009, 04:38:10 PM
Were there boobs on it?

I think I laughed for 5 minutes...

Yes, and it looked like Michael Jackson; hence, the horror.

Quote from: AcneVulgaris on March 30, 2009, 04:38:10 PM
Were there boobs on it?

No no...that was Janet.  She secretly dresses up in his clothes sometimes.

But you said it was inky black.  A bunch of those Jackson kids have a rare skin disease known as honkeyitis, which renders them as white as you or I.

The mystery deepens...

Dude Janet Jackson's snare is beautiful. Listen and cry out in wonder.

That's even scarier...   :-o

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 14, 2009, 03:00:33 PM
ME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Nah. There is no god.

The world is simply too complex to have happened by accident, and btw the algea that creates red algea blooms are freshwater while the red sea is salt water.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 04:41:08 PM
The world is simply too complex to have happened by accident

Um... wrong dude.

What the hell is complex about it anyway?  :lol:

You might be vaguely justified in saying such a thing if we were all living on massive space stations or inhabiting other planets right now... and even then you would be wrong.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on March 14, 2009, 03:00:33 PM
ME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!
If there was a supreme being, the shining ray of light is exactly what would happen if you pray to be healed.
Because it is supernatural and therefore illogical.

How can you possibly prove what the supernatural, or above natural, would do with your natural mind?

IMO:
God is more the undercurrent of the universe than a being. As such it is existence itself. Existence itself will not answer your prayers.

How can you prove that he is existence. personnally i can testify to having my prayers answered. Don't you hear nature screaming it at you that God is real and a Being

My non-religious views are similar to those of an atheist, but I do believe in god as said above, but not the common way.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 04:50:18 PM
How can you possibly prove what the supernatural, or above natural, would do with your natural mind?

How can you possibly prove that god/supernatural things exist? There is NO way to prove it one way or the other.

That is why it must be a load of rubbish. It simply doesn't make sense.

Quote from: Nielk1 on May 07, 2009, 05:33:41 PM
My non-religious views are similar to those of an atheist, but I do believe in god as said above, but not the common way.

That doesn't make any sense either dude.  :-P

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 07, 2009, 05:34:40 PM
That doesn't make any sense either dude.  :-P

Atheists do not believe in god, but they often have reasons why. I agree with those reasons but not the same conclusion.

Nature, Your conscience, The sheer amount of God believers, and history, are all yelling at you.

Do not try to turn THESE PEOPLE to God that way Calvin, you need facts for THESE PEOPLE. Or logic, not yelling.

As stated before, you may not thing the universe is complex BBB, but it is. From a single cell, to every Supernova that happens in the universe. Say all that is chance, well thats just wrong. Science cant explain everything. Religion can.

But then again people like you BBB seem to think if God were real, he would do everything as if he were the King of the universe from a mans perspective. His followers having the best lives, and everyone else having crappy lives.

Science puts a ? where it doesnt know something

Religion gives an answer, God.

In fact i just thought about that while i was doing dishes a second ago. I was thinking "why beleive in a world where nothing is certain and anything could happen, when you could beleive in a God that saves you and brings you to paradise and all you have to do is serve him.

I gotta see facts, and God has shown me facts.

Quote from: cheesepuffly on May 07, 2009, 05:42:18 PM
Do not try to turn THESE PEOPLE to God that way Calvin, you need facts for THESE PEOPLE. Or logic, not yelling.

As stated before, you may not thing the universe is complex BBB, but it is. From a single cell, to every Supernova that happens in the universe. Say all that is chance, well thats just wrong. Science cant explain everything. Religion can.

But then again people like you BBB seem to think if God were real, he would do everything as if he were the King of the universe from a mans perspective. His followers having the best lives, and everyone else having crappy lives.

Science puts a ? where it doesnt know something

Religion gives an answer, God.

Science makes sense, and religion doesn't.

QuoteScience cant explain everything

Almost everything... and that is only because we are still missing a few scientific facts about the universe.

QuoteFrom a single cell, to every Supernova that happens in the universe. Say all that is chance, well thats just wrong.

No, you are just wrong. We have proof that all of that was chance.

QuoteBut then again people like you BBB seem to think if God were real, he would do everything as if he were the King of the universe from a mans perspective. His followers having the best lives, and everyone else having crappy lives.

Isn't that what your bible says? God made us in his image?

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 05:47:57 PM
In fact i just thought about that while i was doing dishes a second ago. I was thinking "why beleive in a world where nothing is certain and anything could happen, when you could beleive in a God that saves you and brings you to paradise and all you have to do is serve him.

Because the first one is correct and the other one is NOT!! It has nothing to do with what you believe, only what is real or not.

Don't turn this into an argument between converters and those who don't wish to be converted. Its just a topic and a question.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 07, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
Science makes sense, and religion doesn't.

Christianity does if you learn it.

Wow my karma went down. I feel persecuted, which is a good thing in christianity.

God is A supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent, omnipowerful, being. God is love, God is the word, God is REAL!

You are insane.

You are stubborn and blind.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 05:54:35 PM
Christianity does if you learn it.

Wow my karma went down. I feel persecuted, which is a good thing in christianity.

Your karma went down because instead of stating your beliefs and stopping it there, you practically attack anyone without the same views. Drop it and stop acting like a zealot, you are not here to convert anyone.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 05:58:10 PM
You are stubborn and blind.

You building up a massive BANME!

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 05:58:10 PM
You are stubborn and blind.

I could say EXACTLY the same thing about you mate.

Very well...Can we pen our religious differences in here so we can relate normally in the other Boards?

Quote from: Nielk1 on May 07, 2009, 05:59:14 PM
You building up a massive BANME!

BTW my faith says that being persecuted for your faith is a good thing

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 06:01:02 PM
Very well...Can we pen our religious differences in here so we can relate normally in the other Boards?

Yessiree.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 06:01:49 PM
BTW my faith says that being persecuted for your faith is a good thing

I DON'T CARE! JUST SHUT THE F*CK UP!

GOOD GOD! *jazzy hands* ohhh no blasphemy!

Seriously, just shut up. You said your bit, so did BBB, so both of you sit down and shut your cake holes.

Pinched a nerve did we?

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 07, 2009, 06:06:49 PM
Pinched a nerve did we?

Broke the topic and possibly the forum rules.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 07, 2009, 06:06:49 PM
Pinched a nerve did we?

BTW i like your accent even if i can't here it on the message board

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 06:08:02 PM
BTW i like your accent even if i can't here it on the message board

Um.... thanks?

There is no point in this argument. No one can proove, nor disproove, the existance of god. Why?

Because

God is imaginary.

http://yourgodisimaginary.com/video10.htm

That in itself is trying to disprove God.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 07, 2009, 06:45:37 PM
http://yourgodisimaginary.com/video10.htm

I can counter EVERYTHING in that movie and even still be Christian. All I need is logic. Not the, hey, I think I am smart logic the narrator uses, REAL logic.

The guy is right - 100%.

Persecution is not necessarily a good thing, its something you should endure with joy if its for God but not a good thing.



Just watching the 1st part of it, but he does sound somewhat respectful atleast.

Will comment when done

Point is, like george carlin says, more people have been killed "in the name of god" then for any other reason, humanity would be far better off just adding his 11th commandment, "Keep thy religion to thy self"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8

Quote from: Nielk1 on May 07, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
I can counter EVERYTHING in that movie and even still be Christian. All I need is logic. Not the, hey, I think I am smart logic the narrator uses, REAL logic.

Well logically how could every tiny intricate strand of DNA, and the perffect positioning of the earth from the sun, and the perfect formula for the air we breath have happened by accident. And what about creativity? If humans happened by accident why aren't we running around naked and eating what we kill? Why do we create if we are just another species? How did we come about higher than the other animals? It could not have been an accident. And wouldn't you rather believe in a God? Isn't it an awful thought that you were an accident, and the whole world was an accident that would all come to nothing? What will happen after humans are gone? If you're an atheist nothing. We simply go out of existence. But if you're a Chrisitan you live eternally in paradise. How does that sound? Good doesn't it.

God, I agreed with you, YES, i was saying that movie was bub kiss, and you still rant. Just shut up. Someone come lock this. I;m finding sonic (or RD). We don't need a thread so Calvin can try to force his beliefs on others.

I was talking to BBB and I'm not trying to force it on him. The last section of my last post was trying to coax him.

K all done

Lets see... the ten reasons shall we? No, i have not graduated college, but i sure has hell think like an adult than more than the kids at my church.

#1 Why won't God heal amputees?

As he said, you may think this but it might be true. Lots of proud people, become humble, and thats what God wants. and even if they dont believe in a god, they become better people. He has a plan for that.

But as an "intelligent person" lets look at it this way. God has a plan, if that plan does not involve being an amputee, then it wont happen, if it does, then it will.

#2 Why are there so many starving people in the world?

This is the hardest one. But first, we could help them, God gave other people power and opportunities to help them, they did not. Also who said all of them believed in a god anyway? Finally, i say lots of people over there should not exist. Dont have children (unless you cant help it for various reasons) if you cant afford them.

This is my favorite one

#3 Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?

Im gonna go a little christian on you but...

Before Jesus died, sin led to death unless you had a sacrifice.

After Jesus died all our sins were paid for.
All of his examples are in the old testament, before Jesus died and saved us.

#4 Why does the bible contain so much anti scientific nonsense?

This one is so simple, HIS FREAKING GOD!

He can make people out of sand.

God can make a flood

God can preserve someone inside a fish.

God could have made the earth in that long, but made the progression of the earth slower.

#5 Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?

That was a long time ago obviously, i think although it says slavery, i think they may have been more like servants.
And do you not obey your Parents even if they are harsh and punish you?

#6 Why do bad things happen to good people?

Does this sound stupid (that is what im going to type?)? Yes. But deal with it.

If you are saved, you have no more reason to live. You have eternity waiting, whether your 9, 29 or 90. God lets meaner people live longer, to give them a chance.

Also, why should it matter? You have eternity anyway.

#7 Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?

He healed sick people, spread some bread and stuff. DO they want a crater or something from that? They are not gonna leave behind evidence. Unless they are talking documentation.  Even then, it could have gotten destroyed.

#8  How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?

Jesus does not have to appear to you, a "Revelation" in the christian mind is like, lets say for a loooooooong time you have not understood something. Then, all of a sudden BOOM it makes sense. Thats how God/Jesus talks to
people.

#9 Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?

Its mostly symbolic. Not actual.

#10 Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians

The bible does say, you can divorce someone if they cheat on you. I know thats the reason for most divorces.
Or maybe those divorces have some meaning later on to make you stronger.

I know none of you are gonna suddenly change you minds. But yes, they can be explained.

And yes, he is a smart jackass, but either way. those are fairly good points. Not executed well.

That amputee video reminds me of a vending machine. Put money in and the goodies come out.

That's not how Christianity works. The videos seem logical, but are, in a way, wrong.

#10 - Why do Christian couples get divorced at the same rate as non-Christian couples?
76% of Americans consider themselves Christian. Less than half of those people go to church regularity.
Statistically, married couples who go to church are MUCH less likely to get a divorce. PRACTICING Christians get divorced LESS than non-Christian couples.

Calvin your karma went down because you necro-posted and went right to attacking people. Please don't do that. According to the Bible, you're not suppose to look for persecution. It will find you.

I didn't look for it. I started to defend my beliefs and they persecuted me. Cheespuffly: people are carbon based after all and when their bodies die they turn into soil. An applaud for you in the next 24 hours.

Wouldn't you rather believe in an almighty God than in an accident and a coincedence?

Yes but heres the thing, they dont believe that happened.

They are not gonna believe in something that does not agree with their thought process.

okay i watched like half the video... and respectful as the guy might seem, hes not right. everything in that video is opinion still, just enforced in a kind of 'this is a fact' way.

Hes basing his entire video on what someone might do in a situation. My views on Christianity are a little skewif and not quite as they maybe should be, but no matter what science tries to say im never going to be convinced that the universe just 'started'. any human who tried to explain it with a big bang or with the beginning of time is talking out of his arse. NO ONE has any proof of anything that far back. period.

Personally, i dont believe God has a 'plan' for everyone, i think hoot happens because it just does. The idea of faith is pretty much believing in something with little or no reason too. Thats why hoot is still happening, God isnt gunna come down and show everyone hes real, everyone would turn into a believed then (if they were sane).

Thats not what its about, so theres no point looking for an obvious excuse for his existence because there isn't one. Theres a lot in the bible i dont agree with or believe, and ive never read it back-to-front.

Theres suffering in the world because lifes a bitch. simple as that. if God has a plan for us, we'd never have true free will would we? Which as i understand it is something we are meant to have. A lot of whats in the bible might not be true, but the IDEA behind the whole thing in my opinion COULD be.

Curiously, does anyone who does not believe in God believe that aliens exist? Yes in most educated peoples minds i would have thought but there will be exceptions. No proof is there? Its all based on what you know or have learnt.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 08:02:46 PM
Well logically how could every tiny intricate strand of DNA, and the perffect positioning of the earth from the sun, and the perfect formula for the air we breath have happened by accident. And what about creativity? If humans happened by accident why aren't we running around naked and eating what we kill? Why do we create if we are just another species? How did we come about higher than the other animals? It could not have been an accident. And wouldn't you rather believe in a God? Isn't it an awful thought that you were an accident, and the whole world was an accident that would all come to nothing? What will happen after humans are gone? If you're an atheist nothing. We simply go out of existence. But if you're a Chrisitan you live eternally in paradise. How does that sound? Good doesn't it.

Interesting if it wasnt that the chuch/pope has already acknowledged that the physical appearance is made by evolution, the spiritual appearance (our so called soul) has been created by God. (Or at least the pope was willing to 'accept evolution'(as if he had a choice...) if sientists didnt touch 'the soul')

First of all red spot I'm not catholic. And Jamsh God will come down at the end of time and make everyone believe, but thats at the end of time so...

I dunno about the last bit. and time ending? not too sure about that either... My views about God and whats right/wrong and what religion i really am are all over the place. Ive never really sat down and thought about it. Ill wait till im old and have time to do such a thing and work out whats up with me :P

Its KIND of like the 'if a tree falls in a forest but no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?' except the answer to that question is no. actually maybe thats not related... lol

Anyway back to work. i shall return later

The title of this thread is a stupid question, that nobody can produce a sensible answer to.
It like watching a football match between 2 teams of blind amputees. Nobody has even found the ball or kicked it but both sides are insisting loudly that they have won...

If your a christian your views on God should comply completely with the Bible so if you want to know about God read the bible. It's always good to start in Matthew.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 08, 2009, 08:01:24 AM
And Jamsh God will come down at the end of time and make everyone believe, but thats at the end of time so...

That exactly demonstrates why I in general dont like religion ....
(and I've been raised religious, so I know enough about it ..)

No let me rephrase that. Everyone will believe because they'll see it with their own eyes and it will be obvious.

How do you feel about everybody being immortal even non-chrisitans?

How about "I think" or "I feel" or "According to my religion" ? ....

I don't have a religion. Christianity is not a religion. It is a faith, or a belief.

Calvin, your not talking to these people (no offense to these people) right.

Different people come to know truth different ways. We both have the same view, but has different ways of which they come to that truth. Your not doing this the right way.

AND STOP DOUBLE POSTING! Edit button please.

And who decreased my Karma?

I would applaud you if I could

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 07, 2009, 08:02:46 PM
Well logically how could every tiny intricate strand of DNA, and the perffect positioning of the earth from the sun, and the perfect formula for the air we breath have happened by accident. And what about creativity? If humans happened by accident why aren't we running around naked and eating what we kill? Why do we create if we are just another species? How did we come about higher than the other animals? It could not have been an accident. And wouldn't you rather believe in a God? Isn't it an awful thought that you were an accident, and the whole world was an accident that would all come to nothing? What will happen after humans are gone? If you're an atheist nothing. We simply go out of existence. But if you're a Chrisitan you live eternally in paradise. How does that sound? Good doesn't it.

okay, first off, the conditions for life here are NOT "perfect for us"

They were already here. We need them to live because we evolved on this planet, and thus we are adapted to the particular conditions on this planet.

On another planet with a different atmosphere and temperature and etc, life can exist, and would probably be very adapted to that specific enviroment.

My theory is that a more advanced alien species came to earth, messed with monkey(primate) DNA, possibly adding in some of their own, or just advancing it by millions of years and making a first few of them on the planet (adam & eve). Probably a science experiment?

Sure, the thought of a lovely god and eternal paradise is nice, but so is the thought of rosemary gardens and perfect neighborhoods and no poverty and...Well, Life just isnt that easy. Heaven is a dream. It's a nice thought, but nothing else. Wake up to the real world. All your silly envisionments and everything you've been told means nothing in the long run. Why? Simple: No One Knows. No ONE. Why? It's impossible to know. Once you're dead and gone, you dont come back. There is no way to proove if there is or is not an afterlife, so think what you want of it and leave others be.

Don't argue, you can share your views but it stays at that.

My views and thoughts on if there is an afterlife, it could be that there is an energy tied to every living thing, and when you die, that energy is set free, to go whereever. Probably in another dimension or something, impossible to imagine because you wouldn't have a body or anything, you wouldn't see any "gates" of heaven, that is something i find so stupid about all the religions, they take alot of referances from manmade things. All religions are manmade, like santa clause. But if there really is an afterlife, it's probably nothing like anything in any book or movie or tale. So I don't think we even have the right to dictate what is out there. We don't know.

:-P

PS: More food for the brains of the masses: What if you already died and this IS the afterlife? What if the afterlife is just another life, with drama and bs and dying and going on to the life after that, etc?

The planet is relatively perfect.

Because humans have more brain power, we are ruining the earth.

The earth is perfect, we are ruining it.

I If you would like to know who God is, just read the Bible and ask Him.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 09:15:11 AM

Sure, the thought of a lovely god and eternal paradise is nice, but so is the thought of rosemary gardens and perfect neighborhoods and no poverty and...Well, Life just isnt that easy. Heaven is a dream. It's a nice thought, but nothing else. Wake up to the real world. All your silly envisionments and everything you've been told means nothing in the long run. Why? Simple: No One Knows. No ONE. Why? It's impossible to know. Once you're dead and gone, you dont come back. There is no way to proove if there is or is not an afterlife, so think what you want of it and leave others be.

You say that's the way things are. Well then how did it get that way? Why is the way things are the way things are? The christians answer is because God made them that way and God is forever. The atheists answer is just because it happened.

or die and find out :P

Suicide is not well acceptable.

QuoteThe christians answer is because God made them that way and God is forever. The atheists answer is just because it happened.

Both of which are rubbish non answers.
I'm a confirmed Heathen.

QuoteHow do you feel about everybody being immortal even non-chrisitans?

Every lifeforms body is potentially immortal.
I love science fiction, but I draw the line at actually reading the bible.

Just try reading it and you'll understand. Persevere at it and it will all become clear. It's really great but you can't get it if you don't read the bible.

Quote from: Red Spot on May 08, 2009, 08:38:32 AM
How about "I think" or "I feel" or "According to my religion" ? ....

AHH! A philosopher! A applaud you!

Is it your avatar cycles, or do i get a different avatar depending on whether i applaud or smite you N1?

Just refresh and it changes.

I tried reading the bible once, i wanted to laugh really hard after the first page.

its so silly.

Talking first page of the Bible itself, or, some where else?

Cause i can reccomend (although im sure you will decline) some better parts of the Bible to read?

QuoteJust try reading it and you'll understand.

No.
Try thinking for yourself and maybe you will.

Quote from: Feared_1 on March 26, 2009, 10:59:23 PM
A belief is not wasted time to the believer. Telling a Christian that they may be wrong in their beliefs is almost an insult. You refute ideas and thoughts. You can't refute beliefs. This is because the believer is basing his/her argument on what he/she believes to be fact and has probably done so for a very long time.

Belief ≠ Idea or thought

There is a difference between telling someone, "I believe the storm will hit us." and "I think the storm will hit us."

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 09:15:11 AM
My theory is that a more advanced alien species came to earth, messed with monkey(primate) DNA, possibly adding in some of their own, or just advancing it by millions of years and making a first few of them on the planet (adam & eve). Probably a science experiment?

WTF?

Did you ever consider that we just evolved naturally from them?

Why do technologically advanced aliens have to have intervened?

Quote from: cheesepuffly on May 08, 2009, 10:31:01 AM
The planet is relatively perfect.

What defines perfect? Trees? Landmass and oceans? What?

We consider it to be perfect because of what humans instinctively find beautiful.

Take a look at this:

(http://www.coast-accommodation.com.au/images/regions-photos/tas-huon.jpg)

Do you find it attractive? Pretty?

Why?

It's only a big pool of Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms. And the the mountain is just a pile of dirt, and it is covered in growths.

Why do you find it pretty? Because you have instincts telling you that it is beautiful.

That is perfect in our eyes, but in REALITY it is nothing special.

God made the world for humans, and in human eyes that is beautiful.

Even so I was talking perfect as in function, not fashion.

If humans did not interfer, the earth would probably have no problems, no over or under population, nothing.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 01:43:37 PM
I tried reading the bible once, i wanted to laugh really hard after the first page.

its so silly.

Try not reading king james and start reading NIV or the Message.

i never understood shakespeare, which is why i have never tried to read the bible.

Maybe im not Christian, i dont know. but i believe in something bigger than myself. something that happens to me after i go through a certain experience (i.e. death), some part of ME that makes me who i am. I define myself as Christian because i believe in 'God', but i dont go to church every sunday, nor do i pray or much else to show it.

Im quite naive when it comes to religion and knowing what each one is about. Im not sure what i do and don't believe about the bible. One thing i really dont understand is why no one ever thinks "this is a book some guy wrote to keep people in check". What happens to people who didnt have God to believe in? did they go to hell (like the ancient egyptians etc.)

I dont know... i dont get it really, but i refuse to believe for perfectly rational reasons that this universe just sparked up out of nowhere, and that it has led me to sitting here typing this. Life is wierd man, the whole prospect of it. Something or someone made this universe.

Im going to quote a phrase i dont like saying, from a film called 'constantine' "God is a kid with an ant farm". In many ways, i believe that could also be true, and i almost like the idea. Trouble is its hard to say it without feeling like youre offending him or someone else.

The message and NIV sound nothing like shakespear. go here and try any version of the bible. http://www.biblegateway.com/ (http://www.biblegateway.com/)

Quote from: cheesepuffly on May 08, 2009, 05:03:00 PM
God made the world for humans

LMFAO & DOL

We are just the "last creation", we kind of just assume we are the ones given "full rights" such as "caring" for the world around us. (My Belief)
Hell, we may as well just be an extention of God himself if that's case. (Ex. Noah and the Ark)
It's not until the story of Abraham that this assumption is clarified as "written in stone" (According to the Bible/Holy Texts of the 3 Major Religions.)

Thinking that the World around us was made only for the sake of the Human Experience is somewhat foolish. I believe that all creating (Divine and by "the creation") is done for the sense of accomplishment, not for the provision of a single creation. (Ex. The pen wasn't made to make paper useful.)

If the world wasnt made for us, could we survive?

In the sense that ALL things that came before the human being were spewed for the sake of making our existance possible, no...

HOWEVER, note that ALL life before us contributed their own things (Cyanobactera provided O2, Decomposers provided N2 and Plants a way to obtain that Nitrogen, etc.) and in turn benefitted the springing of OTHER beings besides us. In THIS sense, we would still be a possibility as Humans have the same needs as all other creatures of Earth.

SO, (restating briefly) If all was made to prepare the Earth for us, No.
If we were made because of convenience (I.E. an older creation allowed for a new one to be made with ease, you know, like the cell phone from the microchip which was made originally for portable computers) Then YES, we would be able to be and survive.

*(BTW, thank you for giving a question which allowed me to further explain my thinking. Also, I am in no way saying anyone is wrong, just stating my view even though my earlier post OBVIOUSLY looks otherwise.)

But do you think they would have provided those things by accident for us? Do you think that cyanobacteria and decomposers would exist if humans didn't need them?

WE don't "need" them. They existed long before us.

IF there is a god, I think he isnt nearly as hands on as you guys think. The big bang theory, the cycle of the universe, all that, could have been started by god. To god, we could be in a pietry(spelling?) dish and he could just be watching to see what happens.

You don't know.

Question for you devout "believers". What will you say when life forms from another planet come and visit us? What will you think when those alien life forms have never heard of jesus or god or any of this sillyness? (Trust me, they'll look at you like your crazy when you tell them about the bible) 

Humans are so primative and simple: Monkey see, monkey do. Thats it. Thats all we are. Think about it. Why do we kiss eachother? Because we see other people doing it. Why do we believe in god? Because other people tell us to when we're little. Why do we wear pants? Because everyone else does.

PS: Speaking of pants...why do stupid people in high school wear their pants so low that they couldn't run from a rabid 3 legged hamster if they're life depended on it? Because they see others doing it. Monkey See, Monkey Do.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 08:00:20 PM
they'll look at you like your crazy when you tell them about the bible

Or kill you because they have assumed their role in the Universe as we have (that being the "chosen" of God) and wish to have no "taint" in "their" world. (Think the Crusades and the conquest of the New World.)

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 08:00:20 PM
To God, we could be in a petri dish and he could just be watching to see what happens.

I still go with my whole "Creating for the sake of Accomplishment" Belief. Why NOT be proud of such a working outcome. The universe is probably just his Award Case. (Yes, I'm saying that all of Creation was an on purpose ACCOMPLISHMENT)

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 08, 2009, 07:56:09 PM
But do you think they would have provided those things by accident for us?

As I stated, I think that we (like all other life) were made because the conditions made it possible. Even IF it were by accident, I don't see why a great creator would miss the chance of using new tools to advantage.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 08:00:20 PMHumans are so primative and simple: Monkey see, monkey do. Thats it. Thats all we are. Think about it. Why do we kiss eachother? Because we see other people doing it. Why do we believe in god? Because other people tell us to when we're little. Why do we wear pants? Because everyone else does.

So how do you explain music? Humans are also the only species to be able to recognize music. Other animals hear sound. That's not monkey see, monkey do. That's a pre-existing ability to recognize the difference between sound and intentional music.

You can teach a monkey to play a song on the piano. The monkey knows that when you press a white key the piano makes a sound. You teach it to hit *that one*, and then *that one*, and then *that one*, so it plays a song. THAT'S monkey see, monkey do. Animals cannot compose music.

Music is a new instinct that humans have created for ourselves.

We just love patterns don't we...

We see the beauty of result.  If we are "in the image of The Creator" then this must mean God sees the beauty of result aswell. (If so exists)

If we were "Monkey See, Monkey Do", then the Nuclear Holocaust and all other hellish occurances would have occurred already. We actually have something called "Self - Control". 
IOW: we aren't governed by instinct but by choice, a gift AND curse.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 08, 2009, 08:51:00 PM
We just love patterns don't we...

Apparently, cause this topic seems to keep going the same way. (that is, Comment and Debunk Comment and back around)  :lol:

art (if you understand it, maths (same again), language, literature, space travel, science, all sorts.

Then again, i always see belief in God (as my very last reason) but always, why chance it XD.

Quote from: General BlackDragon on May 08, 2009, 08:00:20 PM

Humans are so primative and simple: Monkey see, monkey do. Thats it. Thats all we are. Think about it. Why do we kiss eachother? Because we see other people doing it. Why do we believe in god? Because other people tell us to when we're little. Why do we wear pants? Because everyone else does.

What about the very first kiss? Humans wear clothes because they are sinful. If Adam hadn't fallen in the Garden we would not have to wear clothes.

Quote from: Warfreak on May 08, 2009, 08:09:43 PM
As I stated, I think that we (like all other life) were made because the conditions made it possible. Even IF it were by accident, I don't see why a great creator would miss the chance of using new tools to advantage.

Where did those conditions come from? Do you think there was just a whole bunch of stuff just appearing out of nowhere?

QuoteMusic is a new instinct that humans have created for ourselves.

We just love patterns don't we...

And how the heck is music an instinct? Why do some people go towards one kind of music and others another? Do you really think we developed a liking for it just because? The origin of music is worship of God by the Israelites.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 09, 2009, 08:47:50 AM
What about the very first kiss? Humans wear clothes because they are sinful. If Adam hadn't fallen in the Garden we would not have to wear clothes.

Where did those conditions come from? Do you think there was just a whole bunch of stuff just appearing out of nowhere?

And how the heck is music an instinct? Why do some people go towards one kind of music and others another? Do you really think we developed a liking for it just because? The origin of music is worship of God by the Israelites.

Than I'm glad Adam did behave all human .... lol
Also if men is sinfull than according to how your are talking about it I cant help feel your god has failed drasticly.

I guess you're one of those that thinks that religion as we know it today are the first religions mankind has had.
Your god has been preseded by many others .... perhaps they invented music, maybe they even created your god ... ;)

Preaching the bible is easy, knowing (your own) religion a bit harder .. think about that before you make your next statement.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 09, 2009, 08:47:50 AM
Where did those conditions come from?

The conditions of life were the by-product of Lifeforms which came to be by the by-products of the creation of the world which in turn was a by-product of the creation of a solar system which is of a galaxy which are of the universe which is apparently the first creation.

I Believe that God had made one thing and out of the leftovers created more things until he made his latest lifeform (apparently us from what we can see) and we in turn use the "by-products" of creation to make our own things. Basically, one thing led to another and the cycle continues.

(Just a note to those which quote Genesis, it is written in the metaphorical sense.) (Also, read ALL previous posts before stating your argument/view, may have already been covered)

I hate trash king of the hill arguments.

Topic Starter: Random Point! (lets call it A)
Other: but B.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but C.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but D.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but E.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but F.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but G.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but H.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but I.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but J.
Topic Starter: No because A, you are wrong.
Other: but there is evidence to support the theory of evolution.
Topic Starter: No there is not, because god put us here, you are wrong.

Quote from: Nielk1 on May 09, 2009, 12:32:11 PM
I hate trash king of the hill arguments.

Quote from: Warfreak on May 09, 2009, 10:36:44 AM
one thing led to another and the cycle continues.

Quote from: Red Spot on May 09, 2009, 09:01:39 AM

Also if men is sinfull than according to how your are talking about it I cant help feel your god has failed drasticly.

Would you rather we didn't have free will?

Indeed, God gave us free will to obey him or not.

I applaud you cheesepuffly, Return the favor?

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 09, 2009, 08:47:50 AM
What about the very first kiss? Humans wear clothes because they are sinful. If Adam hadn't fallen in the Garden we would not have to wear clothes.

Bullhoot

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 09, 2009, 08:47:50 AM
What about the very first kiss? Humans wear clothes because they are sinful. If Adam hadn't fallen in the Garden we would not have to wear clothes.

No one is required to wear clothing, except by law :P

Going by the Bible, by eating the fruit of the tree, Adam and Eve had their "eyes opened" and saw that they were naked. They were embarrassed. The tradition just passed on I guess...

I'm a practicing Christian. I truly believe that God exists and loves each and every one of us...
...HOWEVER...
I do NOT agree with FORCING Christian beliefs on someone else. Why make them do something they don't want to do? Would God be happier if you forced people to believe in him? I don't think so. That's why he gave us the choice, after all.

Agreed. Ive always thought that you are entitled to you're own beliefs. Why everyone needs to have it forced on them is beyond me.

exactly. More ppl been killed in the name of god then any other reason. Do you think all those people who murdered everyone else just because they didn't convert to christianity back in the day went to heaven? Nope, because they believed in god, but they did it in the wrong way.

Quote from: bigbadbogie on May 07, 2009, 05:34:40 PM
How can you possibly prove that god/supernatural things exist? There is NO way to prove it one way or the other.

That is why it must be a load of rubbish. It simply doesn't make sense.

That doesn't make any sense either dude.  :-P

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it's a load of rubbish.

Quote from: TheJamsh on May 09, 2009, 06:54:05 PM
Agreed. Ive always thought that you are entitled to you're own beliefs. Why everyone needs to have it forced on them is beyond me.

Think about it from an early Christian mindset. I'm gonna reduce it a little bit here, but essentially what you've got there is this viewpoint:

"Christ died. Christ rose from the dead. People rising from the dead means the End Time is coming. hoot, the end time isn't coming; we still exist. Maybe by spreading the word about Jesus, once the whole world believes, then God will bring about the end time."

Maybe you reject that thinking -- but do you at least see why, in their mindset, they became evangelical?

Quote from: sabrebattletank on May 09, 2009, 07:19:46 PM
Think about it from an early Christian mindset. I'm gonna reduce it a little bit here, but essentially what you've got there is this viewpoint:

"Christ died. Christ rose from the dead. People rising from the dead means the End Time is coming. hoot, the end time isn't coming; we still exist. Maybe by spreading the word about Jesus, once the whole world believes, then God will bring about the end time."

Maybe you reject that thinking -- but do you at least see why, in their mindset, they became evangelical?

Maybe. I don't believe in forcing a religion on someone either. I wasn't attempting right there to convert him. I was debating. I believe in telling others about the faith not forcing it upon them like crusaders. I know that's wrong.

Quote from: Clavin12 on May 09, 2009, 08:30:51 PM
Maybe. I don't believe in forcing a religion on someone either. I wasn't attempting right there to convert him. I was debating. I believe in telling others about the faith not forcing it upon them like crusaders. I know that's wrong.

You were not debating. In this topic you have not debated once. All you have done is spout rhetoric with nothing to back your views (though that is hard in the case of belief) or to invalidate others. IOW, all you have done here is try to drown everyone else out.

All right. I except rebuke and apologize. Thank you.

And your Karma just went up two so far in that short moment :-P :wink:

3 :P

Yeah you did seem very defensive in your previous posts in this topic. Made me want to show you that even more.

God is who you want him to be, personally I don't believe in any of that stuff but each to their own.

QuoteWould you rather we didn't have free will?

Many of your statements indicate that YOU do not, you seem to have surrendered it to ridiculous fundamentalist beliefs.
It may be very comforting for you to KNOW that you are always right, but actually it is just a very childish bullying type behaviour, the intention of which is to make you feel important and happy with your own high level of ignorance of the world and its wonders.

You're right. I have decided to be a servant of my God.

No, you see you have confused Free Will with Free Choice.

Free Will is the ability to be goverend by choice and not by instinct.                 <- (from what I see of it)
Free CHOICE is the ability to pick without influence or threat.                    <- (from what I see of it)

In not having Free Will, we are like the beings around us.(strangely making the world a better place)
In HAVING Free Choice, we wouldn't be having people attempting to turn people to their beliefs. (Face it, in trying, they take away the Free Choice as they will attempt to change your choice anyway.)

You, Clavin, have expressed your Free Choice however others feel threated about the condition of theirs. (for various reasons)

I know what your saying and I have already apologized.

...and then there's Free Willy.

Quote from: Red Devil on May 08, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
I If you would like to know who God is, just read the Bible and ask Him.

So are you at least somewhat on my side?

Quote from: Red Devil on May 10, 2009, 11:40:28 AM
...and then there's Free Willy.

:-D hehe willy

I think we've worn this topic out and it should be got rid of.

+1 agree

I disagree.


Quite.

Quote from: Nielk1 on May 10, 2009, 03:34:44 PM
+1 agree

thanx

Can the topic starter lock a topic?

QuoteYou're right. I have decided to be a servant of my God.

You can best serve your god by exploring, explaining and understanding its creations. You will never do that by just insisting that some old scriptures are absolutely true, in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are not.

As with evolution, belief in God is based on faith.

We can only present our beliefs and let the listener/reader decide.

Other than that, it's up to each of us what to believe.

Topico locko!