Silly question about BZII weapon hard points?

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

I know HP's are defined in the model ODF file, but does PB4 and above allow using multiple weapons types without having to edit the ODF to change from one type to another. As I understand it up to 5 HP's are allowed per unit. Say by default my BNG Rat; a wheeled x y turreted unit builds by default with guns, but later I wish to add either rockets and cannons; would I just add more HP entries under the weapons section to make this possible? I've already made variants that equip with either rockets and cannons, but mortar weapons don't seem to work with the Rock Tank based ODF. I changed the HP angle to 45 degrees to compensate for the way artillery weapons arc by natural design, but when I equip my Rat with mortar weapons the unit attempts to engage the enemy, reports that the target is down yet the enemy unit is not destroyed at all? Should I reset the 45 degree angle to 0, or is the Rock Tank ODF base a poor choice for mortar type weapons. Tanks BNG. 

[TheJamsh]

yes you add more HP entries to make adding other weapons possible, but they WILL show up as empty weapon slots in the HUD and there is no way to hide it, you will need the relating model hard points though.

you can add whatever hardpoints you want to the model, but if they arnt in the ODF, then they wont be taken into account by BZII. ive seen models that have spare missile hardpoints in the model which arnt specified in the ODF, probably because the modeller made it, but the DOF maker changed his/her mind with it

As for making Hp's offset. you wont need to. HP's are actually moved by BZII automatically. they dont even have to be turreted.

lets say for example, you have a model with an XY turret, of which a cannon HP is mounted to as it should be, so it will fire from the turrets barrel.

now if two HP's are added to the units main base, but NOT under the turret part of the model, the Hardpoints will rotate in game anyway to face the same direction that the turret is. i think its called weapon convergence. In some cases its a pain in the ass, as i want some turreted vehicles to have forward-locked hardpoints. even with weapon convergence turned off in the ODF, it still happens.

The aiming code and the way mortars 'arc' is defined by the code, not the hardpoints position, so you can place it as normal and the rocket tank will still be able to hit it. The amount of turret up/down rotation is defined by Yaw i think, or more likely pitch... have a look at a rocket tank /assault tank ODF for details on that.

anyhow, the AI will automatically aim upwards with mortars, you dont need to angle hardpoitns or anything

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Tanks TJ, this info should serve as a good starter. It would seem that certain units seem better then others for certain weapons types. The Rock Tank handles twin weapons better then the Ass Tank as the AT splits them into 2 seperate hard points; quite nasty if you intended them to function as one. Season greetings BTW. BNG.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Yep, the Rock Tank ODF is definitely a poor choice for Mortar type weapons as the unit will not engage an enemy yet reports that the target has been destroyed.

The Ass Tank seems a better choice as it has a Mortar weapon HP by default. So far though the RT ODF works premo with twin guns, cannons or rockets though. Now I guess that I should be able to make a wheel based fast/lite Mortar assault type with 2 separate Mortar weapons. BTW, the Hadeans have a cool Mortar tank...does anyone know if the ODF can be modified to be piloted by a player? BNG. 

[TheJamsh]

might be something to do with AI processes.

try using the same processes on a rocket tank XSI, might work better. i have a 'mortar' weapon on the AAN assault tank for Serenesis, works perfectly.

and yes o the Hadean thing, but only in pb4 i believe. Artillery classes are not piloteable in 1.2 or lower i think

[mrtwosheds]

Your rckt tank mortar firing problem is probably an odf issue, I have mortar firing tracked tanks working just fine, they do need to be able to aim them.

[AssaultTankClass]
pitchMax = 1.57

gives 1/2 a Pi's worth of good aiming.

[Red Devil]

Do they have the eyepoint HP?  Some GT's in The Uler were missing it and were wonky as a result.

[mrtwosheds]

Oh yes if you get the turrets/eyepoints wrong they cant shoot, it is easy to get them wrong.

You can attach the hp_eyepoint to the x turret, and NOT define the hp_eyepoint as a turret in the aip.
Or you can NOT attach the hp_eyepoint to the x turret (just on the y turret), and define the hp_eyepoint as a turret in the aip.
You cannot do both or neither.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

It's really is pretty strange with the Rock Tank not engaging an enemy target. I can pilot one of my Mortar equipped units and destroy the target just fine, but I guess the AI draws a blank or something. I tried switching to the Ass Tank ODF with the same lame duck result.

OBTW, the RT ODF rocks for twin gun, cannon and Rocket Y X turrets. I've used it to create some awesomely fast lite (though a bit squirrelly) assault units; they remind me of highly mobile turrets with different twin weapon configurations that don't require deployment to engage enemy strongholds. I set the engage range to 150 meters as the first unit I made used TV's awesome Air Chain (not only does it smoke, but also ejects spent rounds off the guns as it slowly demolishes much larger units like Walkers and Maulers. A small group of them are deadly when they move as a battle group, or protecting other friendly forces.

Oh, not to change the topic, but I'm trying the Mortar Bike thingy on the Ivmbike type of my own design and I notice that the parts lists includes 2 X turrets: x_1_1 and x_2. I'm also integrating a pilot figure in the cockpit in a reclined position complete with an instrument panel mock up. Only my version hopefully will use a twin weapon config if I can work out any bugs associated with such a modification. BNG.
 

[mrtwosheds]

Oh yes, twin mortars always give the AI a problem, they never know where to aim and freak out.

[Avatar]

I've posted this before but this is a good place to post it also.

A 'turret' listed in a BZ2 ODF file is just a piece that moves when you move the controller, be it joystick or mouse.  If you specify 'x' or 'y' on the end it'll only receive 1/2 of the motion, otherwise it gets both vertical and horizontal motion.

So anything specified as a turret will rotate somewhat when you move the mouse. 

You can use this for some things other than weapons, like the BZC pilots:

turretCount = 4
turretName1 = "torso"
turretName2 = "head"
turretName3 = "r_up_arm"
turretName4 = "hp_eyepoint"

They originally had five but that was pushing it...  made it look like he was break dancing at times.    As you can imagine, the head and arm are hooked to the torso, so when you look up the head moves up, the arm moves up (moving the gun up) and the torso tilts back which also moves the other two pieces.  It's subtle but I like the effect, more like a living thing looking up...

The point there is that each will move, and by hooking them together you get twice the movement you meant to, which is a good thing for a human but maybe not for something else. 

Doing something like this with a GT will make twice the movement at the weapon when the controller is used, so the eye won't be looking at the same place that the weapon is.  The AI can overcome this somewhat, but it's not a good setup.

So, if you make something that has a turret and it's working funny try to pilot/control it yourself to see what's going on.  If you can't, then target it while it's working and you'll see through it's eyepoint, maybe accomplishing the same thing.

***

You can have a perfectly working object such as a gun tower without a single turret connected to a weapon.  This is how you make a Gun Tower that can look around but only fire in a single direction.  I've used it to make a GT that enables a shield at the same time that it fires, by having the Eyepoint and Cannon as turrets, and a linked Cannon HP that isn't part of the turret arrangement.  That way the eye and Main Cannon can look around and fire, but the Second Cannon can only dispense an MCurtain straight down.

-Av-

[TheJamsh]

add

AllowAimHigh = false to the mortar. might help with standard rocket tank AI

that and/or needLOS = false

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Cool AV. I found out that not including an hp_light on a gun tower will cause BZII to AV out. Strangely, it's listed as one of the turrets in the ODF. Also I noticed that a second hp_mortar on my version of a mortar bike failed to engage targets. Are the ODF's specific to certain weapons types? Tanks BNG.

[BNG Da BZ Fool]

Well what do you know. Apparently, a single Mortar will work under the ISDF RT just fine, but if you try to add a second Mortar though the AI gets totally stupid and then reports destroying the target but doesn't even fire a single shot. What gives? Has this been addressed in 1.3 and above? Tanks BNG.

PS: I added a Gun and Rocket too, but the Mortar which occupies the first weapon point is the only weapon used to attack an enemy. Is there a way I can modify my ODF to force the AI to use the other weapons as well. The ODF uses the supportprocess and weaponmask = 00001 BTW.

[Avatar]

Cool AV. I found out that not including an hp_light on a gun tower will cause BZII to AV out. Strangely, it's listed as one of the turrets in the ODF. Also I noticed that a second hp_mortar on my version of a mortar bike failed to engage targets. Are the ODF's specific to certain weapons types? Tanks BNG.

It's not that you can't leave the light out...  you simply can't call anything as a turret that's not there.

IOW if you list it as a turret it had better be there, named correctly, or the game will AV.

***

I thought the Rocket Tank AI is one of the few that DOES respect the weaponmask settings?  Strange.

The dual mortar bug that afflicts Assault Tanks given mortars might be the same thing as giving a Treaded Rocket Tank two of them...  I thought that had been fixed for 1.3pb4...

-Av-