New 1.3 Bugs (or are they)

[Wingflier]

Hmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...

Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:

Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?

I think this is a legit question...

What do you guys think?

[SkyNET]

Hmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...

Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:

Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?

I think this is a legit question...

What do you guys think?

Then they'd be too powerful. We have GTs for a reason.

[Aegeis]

Actually, I feel that 1.3 lvl3 turrets should be as deadly as ZST turrets. 1.3 lvl2 turrets should be as good as FE turrets, and lvl1 turrets my 5 yo should be able to beat.

[APCs r evil]

Hmm...I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...

No they couldn't, I remember circle strafing one as the CCA on that mission where you have to get past the minefield to blow up a small enemy thing that didn't even have a Recycler or Factory, don't know the actual name.. Bah, the point is they had the same crappy turn speed as 1.3's turrets.

Wingflier wrote:
Hmm...
I don't know, in BZ1 turrets could hit you no matter what...I don't think there was much abuse back then...

Turrets are easy to counter (mortar bikes and lancers)...maybe we need to make a whole new topic on this or devote a poll to it...The question being:

Should Turrets be able to 'always' hit anything that comes into their weapons' range?

I think this is a legit question...

What do you guys think?

Then they'd be too powerful. We have GTs for a reason.

I disagree, I think that turrets should be able to hold back low-tech scouts,(Minigun, Chain Gun, Plasma Cannon, Quill.) I mean, that's what TAG Cannon, and Lancers are for, outranging turrets early in the tech tree.

Actually, I feel that 1.3 lvl3 turrets should be as deadly as ZST turrets. 1.3 lvl2 turrets should be as good as FE turrets, and lvl1 turrets my 5 yo should be able to beat.

I'm working on a little... thing, of tweaked assets and the turrets seem similar to ZST turrets, although I have never actually fought a ZST turret, my turrets aim straight up and cannot be circled like the stock 1.3 turrets, well, safely.

[MowerMan]

Heh heh heh...  BZ1 turrets...  More like "decorations".  I could circle strafe three of them, kill them all without even getting touched!

[Bull Dog]

My view on turrets are that they are fine like they are

1 lone turret has never been safe in any stock BZ game.
1.3 turrets are impossiable to circle strafe at 100m.
You can waltz around them faster than they can turn.
Fine, to fix that you just need a minimun of 2 turrets or a newbe.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

omg you guys are *Ammo*ing crazy

people are abusing ZST turrets so you wanna make the 1.3 turrets better? you have no idea hows its gonna effect the strat part of the game, if the turrets were better then what they are now I would just build like 4 turrets and put them infront of their base - locking them in it since they wont be able to kill them (they will die million times giving you tons of scrap and wasting scrap --> you get tech while all they did is waste scrap and give it to you + they just wasted LOTS of time)

you can do this 'lockdown' in ZST with all the hovering, so you wanna be able to do it even more deadlier in 1.3? jesus

seriously, I wanna see you get a lancer when you dont even got a builder

hmm, wasting 50 scrap with 1 pool? better off getting a constructor since it aint that hard killing a full scout - tell all your guys to charge it and put turrets abit 'hidden' behind some walls, if the full scout comes out all charge it --> its dead meat and they just wasted even more scrap - giving it to you

and as for scions full scotus - well, the drone *might* be able to drop 1 flare but its dead afterwards, because you got 3 turrets and they dont miss

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

read: http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3055&start=20

page 2 and page 3

[Wingflier]

Geeze Phoenix Calm down!

No but seriously maybe you're right, people seem to abuse turrets already in 1.3 and they aren't even gosu yet.

I agree with Phoenix that we better just leave good enough alone before we mess something up.

Adam

[Spawn]

thinking about the general level of 1.3ers (cept a few), turret rush is a non issue.  1.3 turrets are pretty effective, but their turn is a bit of a problem i think.  if you can rush through a group of 3-4 rats (you can if you time it well) they arent very great.  either way.

@ boobs, you gotta realize the skill differences between you and a 1.3 player.  you may, or may not.  oh well, either way.

[BZ FeebleEffort]

This is an example of how things get screwed up. "Toying and experimenting" with balance issues started early in 1.3 testing, some of those changes were good, others turned out to be bad...by the time it was realized the effects on the balance of the game(because of the changes) had, it was already screwed up. Nathan had very little intrest in listening to ideas to try to "fix' things...and in retrospect..the decision NOT to try and "re-fix" things may have been a correct one.

But the problem still remains, and the problem may only get bigger. I have no idea how 1.3 is currently regarding "balance"...But I do know you can't just "tweak" a turret. I'm not a modder, but I do know turrets have MANY different variables(rotatation speed, deploy speed, hit%, armour, firing angle, engage range etc etc and I'm sure there are more) So you can't just say "Hey make them Better" or for that matter..."Hey...make them worse" there is so much more to it than that...

Also....You have to bare in mind that the "quality" of the turret has a massive efect on gameplay issues..and the issues vary based upon MPI, SP and Human MP games, so you can't just change things w/o  factoring effect for all various gameplay versions(unless Ken is willing to tweak each of the turrets accordingly).

Bottom line is(and always has been)  BZ 2 has been a success because 1.2 was near balance(although it admittedly does have its quirks) 1.3 ill someday require alot of balace fixing, I suggest that day wait until you have a LARGE pool of experienced players to test, because the current group of 1.3 players is small, and IF the day comes that the main online community decides to play it, THEY are gonna want it balanced well...not "wily-nilly".  And I know, I was already a part of the willy-nilly part.

[Bull Dog]

Edited to remove unnecessary comment.

[Avatar]

Calm down everyone...  (finger on the LOCK button)

PF and FB are exactly correct, messing with Turrets has been shown to quickly degrade into one of the messiest flamefests I've ever seen.  Everyone has a different opinion about how 'good' they should be, and they have a MAJOR effect on Strat from the very start.

So drop it.  Until 1.3 is considered 'done' bugwise it's best not to mess with balance issues more than they've already been messed with.

-Av-

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

thinking about the general level of 1.3ers (cept a few), turret rush is a non issue. 1.3 turrets are pretty effective, but their turn is a bit of a problem i think. if you can rush through a group of 3-4 rats (you can if you time it well) they arent very great. either way.

@ boobs, you gotta realize the skill differences between you and a 1.3 player. you may, or may not. oh well, either way.

I'm kinda lost

1.3 turrets ATM are no issue, but if you make them as good as ZST turrets they are, since alot of people still have problems dealing with ZST turrets with infinite hover - and just to think about it in 1.3 + the skill level of the players is lower (im talking about 1.2 vets compared to 1.3 players) + no infinite hover, which is the best way to kill and dodge ZST turrets

I was talking about what will happend if you make 1.3 turrets as good as ZST ones and in 1.3 theres no infinite hover ( = harder to kill turrets)


oh, and im not pissed or anything :p
im just hmmm agressive about this topic    
dont take my 'flamming' or attitude seriously in this subject

[APCs r evil]

Actually, I think that the 1.3 players are better at taking down turrets than the 1.2 players, you see, in 1.2 people seem to think they can take them down no matter what weapon they have. Which as far as I can tell is carried over into ZST. (Those are just two observations I made.) Now not too long ago, I saw a 1.3 player in a stock Tank take down three Gauss Guardians without even getting scratched, know how he did it? He used the Mortar. Now if a 1.2 player tried to take down those Guardians odds are he would get his ass shot to hoot because he would attempt to hover them, then back up a bit and circle strafe kill them. Sure a more skilled 1.2 player would use the Tank's mortar, but a utter and complete BZ2 newb who didn't even know enough to make a Tank with upgraded weapons, took down those turrets just as effectively as some 1.2 players would.

P.S. I did not intend to sound offensive or condescending to anyone in that.