1.3 Enhanced Scout

[Wingflier]

I may not be able to do it as well as your scouts, but I feel I must inform you that I often cycle SP/chain. Hell, I cycle SP/chain/mortar when I'm hitting a pool. I even switch iongun/plasma cannon in a warrior. It's nothing completely extraordinary.

Shut up!

You have to be kidding.  How the heck could you do that effectively?

Do explain : )

[Spawn]

lol, hes just that good.
well, i believe that the advantages of ai ship killing a pool at hyper speeds would be weighed down by their using weapons ineffectively (bad ammo), aka blast on pools, but this could also be abused, like making a tank with sp pummel JUST for pools, or worse, for recyc rushes.  Either way, if you want i would be happy to help you test these ships.

[Bull Dog]

I may not be able to do it as well as your scouts, but I feel I must inform you that I often cycle SP/chain. Hell, I cycle SP/chain/mortar when I'm hitting a pool. I even switch iongun/plasma cannon in a warrior. It's nothing completely extraordinary.

Shut up!

You have to be kidding.  How the heck could you do that effectively?

Do explain : )

I'm guessing he uses his scroll wheel.  He swiches from SP to mortar then to chain then to SP-Chain-SP-Chain-SP-chain.......ect for 2 seconds when the process gets repeted.

[DarkFox]

Wingflier: the 'nextweapon' command, as many people know, can only be clicked so fast. Same goes for the 'previousweapon' command. However, by using both 'nextweapon' AND 'previousweapon' (I have right mouse as nextweapon, and Q as previousweapon) you can switch as quickly as you like, no missing a single shot of minigun fire as you fire out FAF missiles, for example.

In the example of chain/SP/mortar I have chain armed, hold down fire, then hit rightmouse -> q -> q -> rightmouse -> q -> rightmouse -> q ->rightmouse etc. Every five SP shots I fire a mortar, and keep firing chain non-stop.

This is why I don't like MDM, the pool-hitting ability of a tank is pathetic with MDM, and this game is 90% economy, meaning I consider being able to hit pools quickly as more important than finishing a base quickly.


It's worth noting that using a left-handed key for previousweapon opens up a world of possibilities, particularly in FE, but in 1.2/ZST to some extent as well. tanks with plasma/chain/mortar, for example, can hit a pool quicker than a tank with SP/laser, are available at the same point in the tech tree, and have a longer-range, more effective anti-scout weapon, not to mention a chaingun which we all know is great against tanks. They eat ammo quickly, which means they're only a good choice on tiny maps, but still... Anyone who's played a game against my beloved scions will know how much I use EMP lockdown, which when used with a previousweapon key can be an *EVIL* weapon, but is nearly useless without. Tag/laser scouts are another one I like, since it's a laser scout that's capable of hitting pools as quickly as a minigun scout, although it hardly warrants it's price tag.

[Wingflier]

Darkfox...

You're a badass
: )

I would get so confused if I tried switching weapons that fast.

For the most part I stick with 1 wep at a time

   

Adam

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

pure gold post there DF , like preaty much always

lots of things to argue about there though

tanks with plasma/chain/mortar, for example, can hit a pool quicker than a tank with SP/laser, are available at the same point in the tech tree, and have a longer-range, more effective anti-scout weapon, not to mention a chaingun which we all know is great against tanks. They eat ammo quickly, which means they're only a good choice on tiny maps,

I still dislike plasma/chain/mortar tanks and let me add few more points
firstly, plasma/chain/mortar tank has far lesser chance to survive vs a chain scout, let alone a bunch of them
another benfit SP tank gets is the ammo like you mentioned - making it a much more useful pool killer in the long run + the ability to MDM guntowers and constructors

Tag/laser scouts are another one I like, since it's a laser scout that's capable of hitting pools as quickly as a minigun scout, although it hardly warrants it's price tag.

A config I'll never ever use
if you do get a laser scout its for simply killing another scouts, not to hit pools, so there is no point making the laser scout equel to mini scout and wasting all his ammo on a pool, if I am builing a full with only a service bay I would go for faf, since its a better scout killer - which is probably the pourpose you built a laser ship anyways
and if you already have an armory, shadowers

[Wingflier]

wing, seriously, put more thinking before you post

I, as the commander want loose scarp, and I already got 3 pools, I dont wanna deploy 4th pool cause I wanna keep it for loose, while giving it to someone else I cant control it
or a difrent situation, I got tons of scarp and I realy dont need any loose - I just want the pool to be capped (harder for them to kill)

I like to control my scavs and I dont like giving them to other people unless I can tell them EXACTLY (need ventrilo for that) what I want with the scav or I just dont care and 2 far to do it myself

and as spawn said, some people will just go to kill etc'

What does this have to do with not giving your AI controlled ships to humans??

My point is that with ZA's current .odfs, humans are still better dogfighters...not to mention extractor killers, base killers, team workers, etc. etc.

Maybe you need to think before you post.

Explain why you would not give one of ZAs ships to a human player?

Cuz that does not make much logical since to me.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

wing, seriously, put more thinking before you post

I, as the commander want loose scarp, and I already got 3 pools, I dont wanna deploy 4th pool cause I wanna keep it for loose, while giving it to someone else I cant control it
or a difrent situation, I got tons of scarp and I realy dont need any loose - I just want the pool to be capped (harder for them to kill)

I like to control my scavs and I dont like giving them to other people unless I can tell them EXACTLY (need ventrilo for that) what I want with the scav or I just dont care and 2 far to do it myself

and as spawn said, some people will just go to kill etc'

What does this have to do with not giving your AI controlled ships to humans??

My point is that with ZA's current .odfs, humans are still better dogfighters...not to mention extractor killers, base killers, team workers, etc. etc.

Maybe you need to think before you post.

Explain why you would not give one of ZAs ships to a human player?

Cuz that does not make much logical since to me.

then read what I posted again, since it has my reason of keeping the scav --> I dont need a human to plant scavs and I prefer keeping them, you said I should give them to a human
with those scouts, or any other AI - I can use to my advantge, since I know exactly how they will work and exactly what benfit I get from them and what their weak points are
you, as a [no offense ment here] less exprienced player - I cant control exactly, even if I do give you orders you can fail me and I have no idea what to expect from you. I can use the AI exactly to my liking, and since theres not much things you can do better then ZA's scout I'll keep it AI


on a side note: in 1.2, where I'm stuck with new players I'd rather be alone and build a turret instead of their ships, because the turrets are probably more useful

p.s scout automaticly paint targets
most humans dont

[Spawn]

pf is saying that he would rather have the ai scout because it would do what its told and be a BETTER fighter than most humans.  he doesnt need any help killing pools or dog fighting in the game, once he gets laser, your dead.  he has mastered the game, and you will never be able to beat him.  i have beaten him, but it was a 3v1 (me and 2 intermed) and i just maulered his recyc *lol*
the thing about some peopl is that they will not only ALWAYS fight and die, but that they will die in enemy territory, and give the enemy scrap.  the ai scout wont do this normally.

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

only because you had a hidden pool somewhere    

gj though :p

[Wingflier]

he has mastered the game, and you will never be able to beat him.

Hmm...maybe not in 1.2.
But never say never.  :p

Anywho...

I just find it hard to believe that if you had a hardcore vet such as {bac}Opp or Spawn that you would literally let the AI keep their scout/tank etc.

I mean even if the AI were somewhat better than ZA's current, those two players could do some damage.  (Unfortunately I found it out the hard way.)

Do you mean you would not give the AI ships to most players or all players?

Toodles

: )

[Zero Angel]

Thats funny how ppl say they will pick an AI scout over a human. Maybe AI will do a good job now of playing support to a human thug, but they are certainly not good enough to choose over a human. Theres a lot of little attack/defense techniques that make a world of difference, that simply cannot be configured into the AI via handling params and aiNames.

One example is fast running away (or any effective form of running away or pursuit), another is that the AI does not know when to disengage the enemy, and another is that the AI does not  know when to run for pods. You have to hold his hand through every step.

Like DF says, most of the game is about economy, commanders worry a lot already about their thugs losing ships because it sets them back from building the next tech. AI would hardly be different, but maybe it would be worthwhile in a 1v1 or 2v2 strat or fun in an MPI.

[Wingflier]

Thats funny how ppl say they will pick an AI scout over a human. Maybe AI will do a good job now of playing support to a human thug, but they are certainly not good enough to choose over a human. Theres a lot of little attack/defense techniques that make a world of difference, that simply cannot be configured into the AI via handling params and aiNames.

Well put ZA.  I agree.

Adam

[PhoeniX-FlamE]

most, not all

ZA, you should know me and know exactly what I'm talking about

sure, overall in the end of the day people are better then your scouts, not defently not all of them

One example is fast running away (or any effective form of running away or pursuit), another is that the AI does not know when to disengage the enemy, and another is that the AI does not know when to run for pods. You have to hold his hand through every step.

true, but consider its a scout it paints whatever comes near it, it not THAT bad by itself + you need to hold some humans hands as well, and some of them dont even listen

Like DF says, most of the game is about economy, commanders worry a lot already about their thugs losing ships because it sets them back from building the next tech. AI would hardly be different, but maybe it would be worthwhile in a 1v1 or 2v2 strat or fun in an MPI.

exactly! but when you build an AI you know it aint gonna last long and you build something that will be useful to you at the current time (e.g turrets, ass tanks, rckt tanks etc' etc')
with humans, you either build them a ship cause you preaty much "have to" (you cant let them sit there all day can you?)
or cause your praying they will somewhat be useful

[DarkFox]

Just a note PF - I did say 'possibilities', not 'best choices'. Plasma, for example, is only a good choice in FE, and even then it's normally better just to skip tanks until blast (having said that, blast/chain/mortar is far better to a good weapon cycler than blast/laser/mdm). The tag/laser scout is only worth thinking about in 1v1 (or 1v2, 1v3, whatever).

Why are we even talking about this to each other though? We know this man, we're the guys that had almost *exactly* the same kills on each other's playerships when I did the stats pages! I know you know, you know I know.