From what I'm gathering you guys need to apologze to GSH/KEN

[Knarly_Death]

Finally after YEARS of hard work, Ken and Nathan have found it in there hearts to come out with the public beta patch for this game.. which didn’t make a bunch of money…. Which they worked on ON THEIR SPARE F’ING TIME!!!   ARE YOU GUYS INSANE?!!!!!

And if you think that your negative comments were justified and that they are warranted, THINK AGAIN!.. It has been stated many times, very clearly, that certain aspects of the game, namely LAME BUG INDUCED HOVERING would be eliminated like the bug that it is…..  If you want to argue this with the guys that developed this game.. then your just plain stupid…   I know that this may seem inflammatory, but some people are just thick… and if you guys managed to alienate the very guys that have given up countless hours… of their free time to fix the problems with this game, than you my friend are thick…  Can ANY one of guys say that you would do the same?  And we are not talking about playing this game and loving it enough to make a report when the game goes wrong and then going on you merry way…  These guys went into the code… spent HOURS and MONTHS and YEARS fixing and enhancing things…. For what?  For you guys to come in and slam the work?
Don’t you think that these guys may have done this because they loved this game??  Do you think that maybe they actually wanted to fix and improve this game for the people that have remained loyal to this game?  

Has any one of you ever worked your butt off on something… Put in the countless hours…. Just because you like playing the game and you wanted to help out the other people who love to play this game?  Who else do you think they were doing this for??? Their health???   Do you think that they expected to be flamed about the changes in physics when they have added the capability to have numerous races added to the game,  added Directx 9 support??   Have you ever EVER heard of a set of programmers doing something like this?  EVER?  

Show some RESPECT!!!  Because it’s deserved…. Because believe it or not, these guys must have cared about the community to even pull up the code again to find what might be wrong… let alone update pretty much all the major guts of the game…


And how do you guys repay that?   A BUNCH of bellyaching from what I can see.   UN-FRIGGIN BELIEVABLE!!!   This game is now more stable and more fun that it has ever been… And it has opened the door for this game to be what it should have been from the beginning and to maybe be something that we haven’t envisioned yet….

I can’t believe that you guys have done this… First off you have NO RIGHT!! Yea you play this game.. So FRIGGEN WHAT? These guys are busting their balls to update this game and it is amazing to me that you can be so critical and not be more appreciative..   A “I wish you had done this BLAH BLAH (I’m stupid because I am upset they fixed a bug)” and then say at the end… “Great I appreciate the work”…

If it were me after all the work that I did, I would say F YOU you ingrates… And then that would be the end…. I’m hoping that Nathan and Ken can see past the nimrods and continue for the ones that truly appreciate hard work and truly appreciate this game…..

I’m WAY tired so I’m going to stop ranting even though I have a bunch of rant left…. I can’t believe how pissed I am at you guys for screwing up a good thing… Have some FRIGGEN TACT for Christ SAKE!!   These guys have worked hard on this… Do you honestly think that they can take your crap and just say.. “Gee  sorry you feel that way… Now lets get back to work and finish this off”….  Your sadly mistaken.. These guys deserve more… And some of you guys don’t deserve a thing…. If you can’t be constructive then just SHUT UP!!!  Help the problem don’t BE the problem… as you are now…. Like it or not if Ken and Nathen don’t type one more line of code, YOU are the ones we can thank… and If you don’t like the way it has gone for 1.3 then Just SHUT UP!!!   They have said in the past that this is what they are going to do…. GET OVER IT.. If you don’t like it  don’t play… If you want to be part of the solution, play the patch and suggest TACTFULLY if it’s a valid point… If it gets implemented then GREAT.. if not?  Don’t ruin it for everyone else who truly wants to see this patch completed…..

I would also suggest that if you appreciate the work that was done… now is the time to let these guys know…  Don’t wait till later because certain people may have already screwed us all out of later.

Sorry if this post was not organized or didn’t make sense… I’m dog tired and pissed off…. Not a good combo

[Weevil]

Although you're of course right, I fear this is exactly not what will stop the flamewar going on on these boards  :s

[RubiconAlpha]

In a perfect (and grateful) community...It should Weevil  

This community will never be perfect, but I truly wish some of the most vocal against the public beta patch had been at least grateful.

Knarly Death, many of us feel the same as you do. Some to the point of leaving the community out of discuss. However 1.3 ends up, many will play it, mod with it and continue to tweak it.

There will always be v1.0, v1.1, v1.2, G66, StarFleet, FE (FE 1.3 soon hopefully) and v1.3 games played. Plus DuneCommand, Epic and BZRAP, just to name a few of the future mods, which before long will be added to the mix.

Point being, this community, as a whole, has given the fans of this game so many choices. 1.3, even in it's current form, gives us countless new ways to enjoy the game. For that all of us should be grateful.

I'd like to believe most of us are.

[appel]

I've already aplogized to Nathan, more than a week ago, for any personal remarks I may have possibly made towards him. I don't see the need to make that apology public.

True Weevil. It seems to me that the only ones keeping this issue alive are the ones who *support* the 1.3 patch. Face it, some people don't like giving apologies. Pouring salt in the wounds won't make them heal.

[Der Vampyr Engel]

I have to agree with Knarly Death in everything he is saying, come on, all those who were screaming blue murder at the hovering bug, how many games after 4 years, still get patches long after it came out? none, and it is not as I gather you knew that it wasn't coming you knew that bug or not a bug , whatever was coming out.

Personally, I like that fact it was taken out, I remember seeing some ridcilous things like  a scout hovering in one place in mid air taking out a gun tower, ridiculous and completely unrealistic, also, you guy's forget, it, THEIR GAME if they wish to take things out of it then they will, quite frankly, we are lucky to get anything at all, these guy's are doing this out of love for the game, not money, you better becareful, because as they are not getting paid they can easily turn around and say, "*Ammo* this, we do a patch and this is the thanks we get? We do this out of love BZ2 , out of the fact it was our dream and life's work to make this game the best it could be for this community and we nearly enough get flamed for something we didn't want in in the first place? OK next time, because of that ungrateful attitude, we will charge for our time!" Would you all like THAT? Or they simply could say, "Well *Ammo* THIS COMMUNITY, tell you what, we are working on Star Wars Battlefront, its a game of now, we can simply take any idea's we had in Battlezone 2 and transfer it there to a community THAT WILL APPRECIATE US"

It is very risky to bite the hand that feeds you, because one day you may bite just that once too often, and then the hand is no longer there to feed you, if they have gone or are no longer going to bother with the patch, you only have yourselves to blame, and let me make this clear, BZ 2 dosen't exactly sell in vast quantites, so beggar's can't be chooser's, I suggest thosethat complained and flamed bitterly Nathan and Ken best either email their apologies or apologise when they are next online, otherwise , we may not have a 1.3 final patch, or any more patches, ,ever

[deadscion]

Too many posts have been deleted from here for any of you guys to makes any accurate assumption on this topic.

[MowerMan]

These are the post that piss me off!  Calling EVERYONE who think flying is fun, is called a lame cheater or some other kind of epithet.  

Flying is completely realistic, and nobody with a scintilla of physics knowledge has explained to my satisfaction why it wouldn't happen utilizing real physics models.  The software in reality accuratly predicted what would happen if you can balance the craft on it's nose, and hit the reverse thrusters.

Keep pouring the gasoline on the fire...  That will put it out!!!

[SilverB1rd]

I'd personaly like to see this post moved out of the 1.3 board as it has no baring on current 1.3 bug/balance fixes and is only highly inflamitory.

Time to move on and actually play the game.

[Knarly_Death]

Mowerman.. Dude... All I was trying to say.. And granted i was a little pissed off last night when I realized what had happened, is that I STRONGLY feel that if your only contribution was to belly ake about the flying bit, when you have known for years that it was going to be taken out, than you should apologize for being so critical of 1.3 and go off into the sunset playing 1.2....
What did you hope to accomplish?  Piss off the guys that have put there LIFE into this game.... You realize that they literally did this.....

I'm not trying to inflame ANYONE.. I'm trying to get you guys to realize that this is a DEAD issue.... They are NOT GOING TO PUT IT IN.... IT WAS NEVER purposefully designed to be that way.... Please let this go and let bygones be bygones..... It's not worth it... and it just will keep these guys away.... If you want to kill 1.3 keep going by all means.... Because that is what is what more than likely will happen...

Look... maybe I was a bit riled up when I said flyers were lame.... If you like to fly play 1.2.... GREat.. have a nice day....  Even if the physics are right... WHO CARES.. it was not supposed to be that way....   Why is that so hard.....

And this thread was not created to discuss the morality or whatever of exploiting any kind of bug in a game (yea.. it's a bug... the devs have said so).  I simply started this because I was litterally shocked that this community had managed to drive these guys away.. Unbelievable....

Mowerman.. Play 1.2  have fun... Fly around in a hover tank game... I hope it's great... If you want to help 1.3 under the parameters of supporting ALL bug fixes then great..... Otherwise please just play 1.2... Let this game be what it can be for us folks that really appreciate this...

And As far as the private apology is concerned.. That's great.... But I'm sure that the thing you were apologizing for was public... Why not make your positive comments known to the public as well.... If no one knows that you apologized the community will think your earlier thoughts are still justified in your mind and that you could care less about what they have done....

Please Please lets try and keep focused on fixing and refining any problems that may still be in the 1.3 code...  

Peaple find it so easy to flame and write something that may hurt someone when they think they are right... Moreso in these forum type of environments.... But these guys put there LIFE into this... Please temper your responses and again.. be part of the solution....

[Zero Angel]

I've been gone for the past 3 days, but i'm back and seen the worst of people and its good to see that some of you are still sane..

was going to be taken out, than you should apologize for being so critical of 1.3 and go off into the sunset playing 1.2....

Thats exactly what will happen, and where a good half of the 'community' will go if the physics of the default ships remain the way that they are in PB1. But they WILL be fixed.

I know that I love flying, not as in static hovering your base flying, but the occasional midair battle; but as much as I loved that and am sorry to see it go; its not such a big deal anymore, providing that we can still arc wide and maneuver in the air without our side thrusters dropping to 0, then i'll be happy.

Aside from mostly the slowed down unit physics (compared to 1.2) and the new lag that will take getting used to. -- GSH and Ken did a lot of the important things right up to this point.

[Slaor]

Flying is completely realistic, and nobody with a scintilla of physics knowledge has explained to my satisfaction why it wouldn't happen utilizing real physics models.

Flying is completely realistic if you apply 1 particular theory to the question ie: Mower's insistence on an anti gravity drive. Problem with that Mower is that the BZ2 units simply don't fly like that, especially in 1.3 - and anti gravity doesn't explain other factors eg: the resistance encountered when trying to climb mountains or get over cliff edges.

Therefore I don't believe it is in fact a gravity drive or any kind of anti-gravity effect. If someone in the game design dept at Pandi says otherwise then it is he that doesn't really understand the physics involved, because as you so astutely state, there is nothing preventing anti-gravity vehicles from achieving orbit based on the laws of physics. BZ2 hovertanks simply can't do that, and regardless of mathematical bugs in the physics code, now fixed, were never intended to be able to do that. Ergo, BZ2 units do NOT use an antigravity system to keep off the ground. Nor do they need to.

Alternative theory just for you is posted in the "delete posts" thread Mower, enjoy Interested in why you would still think it's an anti gravity thing when all evidence (apart from a stated bug) is to the contrary. If you've ever floated a magnet on top of another then you know that repulsive forces are much easier to achieve using electromagnetic phenomena rather than gravitational - which as far as human physics can tell is alwaysattractive, in this universe anyway.

[MowerMan]

I have not critizised 1.3 one bit, other than to say that I like the way 1.2 ships handle a bit better (and that only seems to be the MBT's that end up a bit sludgy).  That is excactly what I mean about one side of the debate being no better than the other.  Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say.  I've known Nathan since the day he was hired at Pandemic, and I've know Ken for over five years now.  I consider them both my friends, and if someone gave either of them any hoot in real life, I would be the first one in line to kick the offenders ass.

Sloar weak forces become strong forces at very close proximity ala cohesion.  Every particle in the universe has it's own local gravity.  So that is why the craft follow the terrain with it's generated field.  Gravity is the only known force that could explain the behavior of the way BZ2 craft hovering effect.

The only time I've used flying extensivly onlin was the first week BZ2 was released and it was in a DM where I was showing people "Weeeee....  Look what I can do!!!", and I didn't score a single kill.

If people are having fun with it, it should be allowed to have it as an option (I would play either way, with whatever rules set by the host).  It infinitre flying is gone no matter what, I will still play 1.3.  I'm not however, going to stop telling the truth.

[CmptrWz]

Lets assume that the forces in question are fields. It isn't like we can see them, right?

Now lets take into account the possibility that two objects with fields can't push each other away easily, thus we can crash into other ships without any resistance from the fields. That would most likely be from a merger of the fields into a single, larger field containing both objects.

Now, how much of a stretch is it to assume that the fields operate against MATTER, not against GRAVITY? Thus, instead of pushing away from the planet/moon's gravitational field you are pushing against the matter the gravitational field is pulling you against. Thus, once you are far enough from the ground the field has no more lasting effect. Pushing against a liquid may be similar to pushing against the ground as the liquid has enough attraction between particles to hold somewhat of a form, varying depending on the liquid of course.

Gases, however, would provide nothing to push against. A gas has no given shape, no given volume. You can push a gas aside as if it wasn't there, for the most part. There isn't enough resistance to forces for a field effect that works against matter to do much at all.

And of course, on a planet or moon with little to no atmosphere, there probably aren't that many gases to work against anyway.

[Slaor]

"Sloar weak forces become strong forces at very close proximity ala cohesion."

Maybe, but even assuming that is relevent to gravity, electromagnetism is still many orders of magnitude stronger. 2 fridge magnets can defy gravity. The electro magnetic forces that predicate physiology and biology and chemistry allow a flea (or a human, incidentally under the enormous downward atmospheric pressure also caused by gravity) to jump off the ground. A helicopter goes to all the trouble of inefficiently converting chemical energy (which is an electromagnetic phenomena) into kinetic energy and it can defy gravity. ALL these things start in a state of close contact with the gravity generating object in question (ie: Earth) - indeed any perceptible distance between the atoms of my foot and those of the ground are caused by electromagnetic forces.

From an engineering perspective, if you are going to be generating electro-magnetic forces for weapons etc, why go to the trouble of also whacking in an anti gravity generator when a: it's power yield is so comparitively low by the very nature of the force it is actually generating, b: it has exactly 1 function, whereas an electromagnetic field generator could eg: be modulated to provide anti energy shielding or manipulate chemical reactions to produce ammo from pure energy or thin air and c: is theoretically not even necessary given that you have the technology to do all the things in point b?

In terms of physics there are a few options that at least as relevent to the observable phenomenology of BZ2 hover units as anti-gravity drives.

[Zero Angel]

Awww, but I just opened this bag of popcorn.. what am i supposed to do with it now?