(Medium Suggestion) A use for Site CAMM

[APCs r evil]

Is there a way to make Site CAMM show ships that are using VIR? If so that would make Site CAMM much more useful.

[stinky]

I have no idea how to get Site Cam to reveal ships using VIR - but it would be a cool effect!!

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

One thing i would do is make sure that it cost no ammunition to use Site Cam.

[CmptrWz]

Why, JWK. Why would you want a weapon that lets you see through terrain, perhaps if someone makes a flag to see VIR then it sees invisible ships, use NO ammo? That is a balance NIGHTMARE.

[DarkFox]

No it's not wz. Even if Site camera used no ammo whatsoever, I'd still not use it. I'd either use solar flares, M-curtains, or VIR. The ability to see a VIR ship is not as good as the ability to use a tiny bit of ammo and make a magnetic bubble appear, or the ability to use a little ammo to turn invisible and become immune to seeking rockets.

[CmptrWz]

But on the other hand, if for some reason you WERE using it, having it use no ammo whatsoever can't be a good thing. If that is going to be the case, then build a special building that, as long as it exists, makes ALL of your ships capable of doing that. Render VIR useless once that building goes up, make terrain impossible to hide things behind, etc. and so forth.

Just being able to see through the terrain like that to pick up on turrets hiding behind things before you can actually see them is a bad thing, in my opinion, even more so if you don't have to give up some ammo to do it. That little ammo consumption could mean the difference between a dead you and a dead turret.

Just because most players don't see it as something that affects balance doesn't mean it has no effect on balance. You have to build the thing for a reason, and it consumes ammo for a reason. It may seem 100% useless 99% of the time, but having it cost nothing while you use it would still affect balance.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

You are not understanding something WZ. Firstly in BZI it did have a function because you could combine it with Hornet/comit cruise Rockets, But that kind of balencing ATM doesnot work because Thermal Tracking is still deflected by VIR. A bug that has yet to be fixed, even though the odf's say it should work, and thermal locking worked in BZI.

Also, The fact that Site Camera at the moment is never ever used because the Cost of its ammo *and* the fact you cannot use Redfield/Mcurtain/Mits/Phantom VIR is simply not worth the abilty to see though terrain.

If it cost no ammo then it woudl still never be used. If the thermal missile class bug was fixed...then *mabey* it might get used because Hornet and Site cam on a Hammer (fe unit) would be a good counter to RedField /Mag Sabres.

But as it stands it is simply just an easter egg.

[CmptrWz]

As I said, even though it seems useless most of the time, even though very few people would use it, it still should have some ammo cost for those that do use it.

I will not say that the cost shouldn't be lowered, only that the cost shouldn't be taken away 100%.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

This so much tactical and stratigical pressure going against its use, Any ammo cost notop of the fact you are using a special weapon slot will simply nail its coffin shut.

Its just a Radar system thats all, i see no reason why it should cost ammunition if all it does is improves your sensors.

[CmptrWz]

Because it makes your sensors do things they normally can't. You can get a line of sight through terrain, seeing things that your radar can't even see are there. You may not be able to target them, but you can see that they are in fact there. If it only showed you what your radar could see it would be one thing, but it doesn't. It shows you everything on the other side of the terrain, even things your radar has no clue are there.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

True, my error. However you are not taking into account that it takes up the special hard point. That alone is cost enough for the abilty to see though terrain.

[CmptrWz]

On the other hand, it was your choice to use it instead of something else. You may feel that knowing if the enemy has turrets around that tight bend is more important then having another special that does nothing to aid you against them.

Just like every other special, Site Cam has ups and downs. One of the downs is that it tends to be considered useless in most situations. That does NOT mean it shouldn't follow the rules of every other weapon you can turn on and off. When you turn it on, it has to get power from somewhere, which happens to be your ammo reserve.

In some ways, it is like taking VIR and reversing the effect, so instead of making you invisible to everyone else, it makes other things appear invisible to you. Granted, it only works on terrain, but the fact that it is doing it means it should, logically, cost at least as much per second as VIR does.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

No it doesnt Cmptrwz, saying '' oh they can chose to use it or not'' just means that in-game noone will actually use it and you have wasted what could be a cool addition to the game.

The way i see it is that it is an improvment on BZI technology. And what it does is take up the internal space that would normally have a special (such as a prox or phantom VIR or something) and replace it with scanning equipment. That means that one should just turn the Scanning equpiment 'on' or 'off'.

You do not go around saying that the Light on the front of a sabre should cost ammo, so why should SiteCam?

Also, from a stragicall point of view this would mean that the weapon might actually in some odd situations get *used*. Having it cost as much ammo as Phantom Vir is Ridiculas.

EDIT :

Just like every other special, Site Cam has ups and downs. One of the downs is that it tends to be considered useless in most situations. That does NOT mean it shouldn't follow the rules of every other weapon you can turn on and off.

The site cam does not have 'ups and downs'. It has a tiny up and a  very large down. I am arguing that the down should be made to at least match the tiny up. you are saying that it should remain like it is...useless.

You may feel that knowing if the enemy has turrets around that tight bend is more important then having another special that does nothing to aid you against them.

Again, your lack of in-game experience shows. Solar Flare is *very* good at killing turrets. If i want to know if turrets are around a tight bend, i go around and quickly pop back to *look*. then i go get solar flare and kill them if they are that much of a threat. Or i can use mdm's, or Shads if i can work around the corner. Also, since deployed turrets are just about the only thing you target though terrain, the only real help you wuld get from using Site camera EVEN IF it cost no ammo was

seeing things within range of a Jammer
Seeing a Red Field Mag Sabre though terrain.

Just the fact that you *spend* a special hardpoint to have Site Cam is enough. Even then its still only going to be useful in certain situations.

Also, If the Thermal Missile bug was fixed, then the site cams 'up' might just get as big as its 'down' ...the down being the cost of a special hardpoint slot.

[DarkFox]

I do completely and fully understand what you are saying wz. However, I think you're misunderstanding the 'cost' of using sitecam.
See, even without ANY ammo cost whatsoever, hell, even if sitecam *GAVE* you ammo, it still has a very large and real cost - 1 special slot.
As long as you are armed with sitecam, you are constantly using up a special slot - that special slot is one of the most important elements of BZ2 gameplay. The special slot with ISDF typically gives you the choice between -
a. Being able to beat a turret-pump with ease using solar flare.
b. Being immune to image, heat, or radar seeking missiles with VIR.
c. Being able to protect your base or forces from mortars and sonic cannons - doubling up with an ability to extend the range of your travelling ordinance significantly, with M-curtain.

Giving up one of these 3 abilities is a cost, using ammo is *more* of a cost. The ability to see through terrain is a *tiny* advantage. In my opinion, that advantage is outweighed simply by *one* of the above costs, nevermind both. Even if it used NO ammo, the cost of losing the special slot is still too much to justify the use of sitecam.

See... ammo costs are one thing, vehicle weapon slot costs are another thing, so even without ammo drain, sitecam still has a huge cost. Balance is all about balancing the costs with the benefits, and sitecam, even using NO ammo at all, would not be balanced.

[Jwk the Hemp Monkey]

If it cost no ammunition and gave you the abilty to target and attack Redfield or Jammer-protected objects then it would mabey be balenced. It would also have a role as a 'counter' to Jammers and red field sabers.

of course, that would have to be an extra feature.