Battlezone Universe

Well, I just had a grand old read of the old topic, after getting 3 emails from people asking me to post there, and formulated my opinions on the matter.

Unfortunately, that topic was locked (why on earth lock an on-topic and important post like that?) after everyone had their say, but I feel the need to get my opinions on a few matters out in the open, so here goes:





My take on some of the matters mentioned here:

Opening statement - there is no racial balance in BZ2, and there can never be due to blink.
Any attempt to balance will fail. Ellaboration is provided below in the 'racial balance' subheading....

As deadscion said: "This balance pursuit is useless and never ending, impossible to finish"
Just one example of the never-ending balance arguments we have in BZ2. I earnestly believe it's because the game is not possible to balance in it's current state, due to blink. Again, ellaboration below.








Splinter:
This was done in an effort to break the stalemate that was emerging from the FE long gamestyle. I realise it was radical, but the truth is if a serviced assault is taken out by a team of splinter tanks, with the entire team of both sides in the battle (so 3 escorts for the serviced assault), you can still often make it count by killing the enemy tanks before they get to reload properly. I can see the problems, and it would perhaps have been better if we'd made the splinter cost *all* of the ISDF tank's ammo instead of just half of it.






Blink:
I have a lot of feelings on blink, and as a scion player that rarely builds it (it's stupid) I feel what I say should be worth hearing here....
Blink has 2 main purposes as far as I can see. The first is getting a player around the map, and the second is getting the player out of a fight.
The combination of these two makes a player far too effective. If he wins a dogfight, he's won. If he loses it, he can still blink away, and if there are pods on the scion rec can even blink back and finish his opponent. It's a win-win situation in almost every fight.
As such, I'd be eager to see the blink changed to a chargegun class weapon. It would have to be charged for about 5 seconds before it could be used, and after 5 seconds would continue to eat ammo, meaning it could be used to get around the map, but escaping from dogfights with it would need a lot of forethought.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure the Devs like this idea, and it can't just be ODF'd in (god knows I've tried).

If the devs can't make blink a chargeup weapon, then I have a very simple answer - remove it completely. It's an overpowered weapon, and it causes people to argue all over this 'early game vs late game isdf v scion balance' issue.








Racial balance:
This is an amusing one. The general concensus is that ISDF have the advantage in the early game, whereas blink get's it in the late game. This was, IMO, because the ships were not balanced with 'prevweapon' weaponswitching in mind. Once everyone started using prev and nextweapon keys, the FAF took the scout balance way out. The amusing part is, of course, that:
a: There is no way to make blink anything other than overpowered
b: There is no way to GET to the late game with balanced mix-raced teams

This leads to an inevitable conclusion -
c: There is no way to balance the races.

See, if scions have a chance in the early game, they make it to blink and win. If they don't have a chance in the early game, they can never win. There is no 'balance' there at all, at the moment ISDF are hugely overpowered because they choose whether or not they want the late game to exist. Give scions a chance in the early game, and they in turn become completely overpowered because they get to blink.
It's not racial balance at all, it's racial *imbalance*. Stalemate racial imbalance, I'd say.
The answer, of course, is just to remove blink, then go about balancing the teams (make scion scouts more powerful in the early game, [either tone down MDM, or make EMP push shots away like sonicblast does]). Perhaps blink could be replaced with a 'slide ray' type weapon, like TV made, to increase scion ship speed a little.

Another issue is that scions are not improved in 1.3. In fact, they are much weaker, due to their inability to build/cancel. Voice of my experience here.

Finally, I should mention the rocket-tank spam - WITH blink this is hard to get around. Without blink it would be almost impossible, so I'm of the belief that scions also need some kind of counter to shadower missiles. Giving them VIR would be silly, and I kinda like the idea of a ground-based counter, but it's very hard to think of one, so maybe making the image signature on the warrior MUCH lower would be a good answer instead?







MDM:
Fair in an ISDF v ISDF game - against scions this is another overpowered weapon. The gunspire is too easy to hit, too expensive, too hard to replace (need pools), and the scions have no way of preventing it at the mid-game. An answer that didn't interfere with the mid-game would simply be to give scions access to a counter in the mid-game. I don't personally like the idea of giving them C-curtain, and it'd be pretty hard to protect a spire with it anyway, so I'm going to suggest re-working an existing weapon - perhaps assault EMP - to provide an 'M-laser' that will push away projectiles up to, say, 80m in front of it.







For the sake of getting the ball rolling, I think it'd be worth trying the values as they are, removing blink, and giving scions a little more damage with their plasma.
After testing, we can perhaps experiment with increasing jammer range if shadowers are (as I and PF predict they will be) game-breakers.


~DF

ps. For the sake of covering a little issue, I'd like to address one more thing:

QuoteScion can OWN isdf if they play right, you've probably just never seen a good Scion commander and set of thugs. heck, get Darkfox commanding and everyone dies.

Actually, I can't own everyone when I'm scions. Experienced ISDF commanders still have me for breakfast, and PF is one such player. Spawn beat me too at one point, though I'm pretty sure I was neglecting the use of blink, so that's worth bearing in mind.
Amusingly enough, after I stat-ed it, I found that over 80% of my games are played as a scion. That has perhaps given some players the impression that they're my best race, which is untrue. I win more reliably when I play as ISDF, which goes leagues to show that there's something wrong.

if blink is removed then scions need better specials.  only a few are really worth anything, possibly readd jax (it has messed up req) or improve the existing specials to be better, maybe give scions a jammer mine

shads arent much affected by sheilds, if that could be changed then it could be your solution to warriors

you could make a mag like weapon that drops a starfleet like mcurtain (drop one, sit there and you go flying) to give a blink like effect with a chargegun.  also could make dll detect whatever crapped out the mine and move the ship that distance

I'm very opposed to making EMP Stream deflect projectiles. Only because doing so would no longer allow it to halt weapons fire.

Don't forget the Arc Mine.

I've got great respect for DF's strat opinions, and am very disappointed that his post was so short...  :)   

Let me start by saying that everyone knows I don't play Strat BUT before you stop reading let me assure you I'm not preaching balance here, just going to point out something.

Everybody thinks of balance as 1=1.  They try to boost or weaken one side or the other, at some predefined point in the game (early, mid, late), so that the power levels are the same.  This can be incorrect thinking when it comes to dual races...  true, the Scions started out as human, but the whole point of them was that they were a 'hit and run' style rebels while the ISDF were the stodgy, overpowered 'establishment'.

I think the important part there was "style".  Rather than suggest more powerful weapons, or equivalent weapons, why not think about the style of each race?

As an example I'll ramble a bit about how the Scions are 'hit and run' and how it affects their style.
Lower visual/heat/radar signatures would fit them, or anything that makes them more stealthy like VERY effective jammers.
Greater speed would fit them, or greater maneuverability/jumping/turning.
Lesser armor fits them, at least in their fast units.
Shields fit them, and it makes no sense that you can't apply them to heavier units and/or buildings...
One-shot weapons fit them (like the mag? in the opening movie that takes out the GT), and energy-based is right on cue. 
Extended Dogfighting does not fit them, but diversionary fights do.
Something like a camoflauge effect would fit them, (dare I suggest a full out 'cloak' ala TRO?)

See?  I read a lot about giving them this or taking away that, but not much that expands them as Scions.  I see more of an attitude that turns them into ISDF with cooler looking paint jobs on their ships...

OK, shutting up now.

-Av-
 

@DF, sorry bout that bit heh :) I'm just remembering that first 1v1 i had with ya - first time I saw Scions being used effectively. ever. (even IF you were incredibly rusty)

I agree with MDM being made weaker (think I mentioned it somewhere?),but not sure on the effects it could have on ISDF v ISDF games. needs much testing obviously.

Blink could be made Chargegun and fire a Magnetshell round that surrounded it, which would also make it work when in the air - but there's so many potential issues with doing that and it'd need A LOT of fine tuning to even work properly that it's probably not worth it. That and it'd be impossible to make it use more ammo over distance, but that's probably impossible to avoid anyway. Could have a go at it, see how it turns out...

That, or remove it and make scion hover ships faster in general to compensate (as they do seem pretty sluggish compared to their ISDF counterparts), and it IS one of their supposed racial attributes, as Av pointed out, so it wouldn't seem too out of place.

On MDM, we could tighten up the Gun Spire's collision box, so shots can only hit what it looks like they could. Or at least make the center a no-hit zone.

wasnt mdm's ammo usage increased already?

Standard mortars should have an increase in splash damage. Since most people invariably upgrade to MDM's for turret/GT hitting, increasing splash somewhat would make them think twice about upgrading since the mortar would be more effective at taking out heavy assault groups (Defensive) while less effective at point blank SP/Pumm/Mortar/Mcur attacks due to splash damage also being inflicted on the attacker. Slight (~15%) modifications though. It's always better to underestimate a balance change then to overestimate it.

ZA - I always use standard mortars for pool-hitting, weapon-switching with chain.
If you don't want to stop firing in between switches, you have to aim at the top of the extractor, and get close enough that your mortar doesn't hit the ground. If the splash damage were increased, this tactic wouldn't be worth it for the health damage I'd take, and I'd switch to using MDMs 100% of the time.

You do know you could make a recycler choice in 1.3 that would allow you to rebalance the races, like removing blink and giving jax, setting the things AV stated, etc... etc...

Quote from: OvermindDL1 on November 23, 2005, 12:58:41 AM
You do know you could make a recycler choice in 1.3 that would allow you to rebalance the races, like removing blink and giving jax, setting the things AV stated, etc... etc...

I agree. If MDM is the main complaint by Scion and Blink is the main complaint by ISDF, then just create a recycler variant with those removed.

This way all stratters who use your server will know you don't support it.

I'm not sure that will work, again, because of the weapon lists in the factories. The only thing I think you could do to get that to work would be tech tree manipulation.. I know that would work for Blink but I'm not sure about MDM.

In the 1.3 Patch recycler variant this much is possible.

The recycler builds the constructor you tell it to build.

The constructor builds the armory and factory you tell it to build.

The armory and factory build the vehicles/weapons  you tell it to build.

If all of those things have the items removed and are properly renamed, then you have a game condition with no MDM or Blink.

And this is just with PB1 and not the stuff being worked on.

without blink scion would have no way to stop rocket tanks...

You would have to do something about the weapon list for the customization panels, or the weapons could still be selected that way.

QuoteI'm not sure that will work, again, because of the weapon lists in the factories. The only thing I think you could do to get that to work would be tech tree manipulation.. I know that would work for Blink but I'm not sure about MDM.

In the public beta 1 and older versions of bz2, it is impossible to specify a custom weapons list for a factory.  I can't say much more than that.

I too suggest using a test recycler to avoid bad assets.  Its better that players enter without having the assets so it is easier for them to tell they don't have a particular set of assets.  Its easier than trying to figure out what particular assets are causing them to get kicked.

what ds meant was get a building that blink/mdm requires and rename it, causing the reqs to no be forfilled, so it wouldnt be selectable

could work, but then all the other thigns that depend on that building would be messed...

aha, DF, always a pleasure reading your posts

I do disagree (for now at least, as I'm trying to test a certien tactic I've been working on but lack of testing still makes me be unsure of wether it works or not) about blinking being removed, there are many things you can do to leave blink in and give ISDF something vs it instead

if we are going to do a balance change msl scouts will *have* to get more health, making them useful vs scions and [throwing a very very wild idea here] make shads more powerful vs absro and statis you could in a way force warriors & scouts to use deflection, then if you can get blast tanks out the scion warriors even with blink will get alot weaker, if it fights the blast tank it'll easily get drained out of haul and if it has absro and fight a msl scout - again it'll get drained out of haul quickly
I'm not saying we should do it, its just a crazy idea I just thought of, with no deep thinking of other results or whatsoever - just trying to show blink can be *somewhat* balanced

Long ago I 'balanced' blink...

As any good "Asteroids" players know, bad things usually happen when you hit 'hyperspace' too often...

Once again I think all that needs to be done is a % chance that you'll explode on the other end.  Even 1% might make people think twice about using it, or pull a rabbit out of a hat for the ISDF Commander that's getting owned by Blink...

Just a thought...

-Av-

Ergo, you should make a recycler varients that attempts to balance the two races as perfectly as possible, while keeping their differences. :)

[HINT]if we could get a dll for certain blink variants (kill you X% of the time, if a ship fires a certain ordaince moving it foward some distance ect) it would be interesting to say the least[/HINT] :-P

I would hold off on the blink omission for the Scions until public beta 2.  A lot and I mean A LOT of hardcoded variables will be tweakable in the next public beta and in 1.3 final.  You will have a lot more settings at your disposal.

What if blink was replaced by some sort of afterburner? The craft would be vulnerable to GT/Spire  fire and missiles while it's boosting, but still be able to get the Scions in and out of battle quickly.

Could work, but omg asteroids :-D (actually you might be able to do similar by increasing the ground splash, but it'd be somewhat random and you'd probably be able to use it vs the enemy)

hmm cant say I like afterburner idea, as blink should be just that - BLINK

move from a place to place in a *blink*

I've been thinking abit (realy - abit...) and I think that mag could be a nice counter to blink (increase mag damage to shields)

using mag will also - IMO keep the racial traits perfactly - ISDF, blasting away and using lots of power vs scions - whom are sneaky --> they'll have to listen carefuly and if they sense mag they just *RUN* or they die :P

yeah MAG vs absorbtion warriors is really disappointing, esp. seeing as it instagibs the Sabre

Making missile scouts capable of taking on warriors is an absolute no-no IMO. Scions have enough trouble at the start, and once the ISDF breaks out laser it just gets worse. The few scion build-tree routes that take you to early stasis shields to give you a chance against laser, would just face a missile scout and die all the same.

I've nothing against bumping missile scouts up a little, but not enough to beat a warrior, and don't make their weapon any more powerful or longer range either.




As for the idea about blink destroying the scion 1% of the time - what does that acheive, really?
It takes away the 'get around the map' element of blink, but keeps the frustrating and lame 'save your life' element with 99% of it's current effectivity.

My idea of a chargegun blink was to acheive the absolute opposite - making it just as attractive to get around with, but much harder to lame out of fights with. Besides, with some nice sound samples, charging and firing a blink could be very satisfying.


Anyway, we'll await PB2 I guess...

I love the idea of a charge-up to blink,
makes sense for scions since they kind of
have to 'charge-up' to morph too.
How about 3 seconds? Enough time to
make it not the 'get out of jail free card',
but short enough to make it worth doing.

I also love the idea of making a certain shield
the only effective one against shadowers,
I had just the same idea myself yesterday,
but I couldn't be bothered to post. That
would make shield-choice a real choice ;
Abs : safe-ish from blast, hurt by chains, death by shads
or
Def : Dief from blast, safe-ish from shads.
Right now Def doesn't protect from shads enough
to make it the shield of choice.

In FE, msl-scouts got light armour. In 1.2
I think they have no armour. In FE they still
didn't get used much but I think that's only
because of their rubbish pool-killing abilities.

charge up wont achieve much simply for the reason you can fight just as good without having to change to "blink" on the list, all you have to is keep your finger on special-weapon-fire (w/e its called)
and will the charge up take ammo, or no? if no u just walk around all the time a finger on fire-special and if u dont need it just look to the sky and let go

DF - as I said twice - the msl scout was just a crazy idea I know isnt an option and is a big no-no
but it was only to show that there *are* ways to balance blink without touching blink itself

DR - defle is great vs empty chain scouts or chain turrets - it *does* get used from time to time and theres nothing wrong with it

I'm sure that the charge up could be made so that as soon as you activate Blink the charge starts, and when it is fully charged your ship Blinks to whereever the reticle is without any further input from the player, just the initial activation, so that Warriors couldn't run around with a fully charged Blink at all times.

Or you could just make charging Blink a constant drain on ammo, even after it is fully charged.

Yeah APCs, hitting the special/Blink button
should start the charge-up and activate when
fully charged,
it could make for some very entertaining mistakes.

Oh oh, didn't mean to hit that button! zzzzZZZZZ-Pong!
Too late ...

Phoenix, Def might get used by a few commanders
just until blast Sabres are around, then everyone tends
to get Abs to be able to duel it out at max range
and deal with Gts.
With all the shield choices 'seeming' to give very
little protection against shadowers there isn't
much urge to use Def later in the game.
Upping Def shield protection against Shadowers
would give scions more reason for Def but might also
allow more Blast/Laser kills against them ...

I thought of the charge cost too. Ã, If you continue to hold down the mag cannon, you are still using up ammo even when you aren't getting any more power out of the cannon. Ã, An ammo cost associated with holding down the blink too long could be a good way to discourage holding down the special. Ã, Even setting a shut off timer could help. Ã, For example, setting a 3 second delay and shutting off blink if it is held down for more than 10 seconds. Ã, It would require tweaks by GSH.

Here's another idea to even the scion-EDF balance
at the start : Scion-plasma joggle-boom-boom.
Everyone is in full scouts.
Mini/FaF eats scion scouts when it hits, and it
hits more than scion-plasma hits.
Scion plasma is a great weapon with good damage
against unarmoured and light armoured targets,
increasing the damage would just make it even more
of a turret-killer which I think would be too much.

Try this idea ;
Scion-plasma having a small joggling effect, like a
toned-down sonic/arc effect, bumping the victim.
This fits in exactly with current scion weapon effects and
would even fights up tremendously in scout-v-scout
doggyfights.
The slight joggling effect would cause more misses by
the mini/FaF EDF scouts, thus balancing without changing
and other game balances.

Gimme your serious consideration fellas.

I was thinking of just having blink suck up ammo like mag does, as you charge it. After about 5 seconds, you can release the key to blink. It'd certainly make blink remain a useful tool without having it the ultimate weapon that it is now.


RE: Deflection shields - I know they can be useful, but the issue is a *good* ISDF commander doesn't have to go around hitting pools against scions, he simply denies the scion player any pools while taking them for himself. He acheives this pool denial simply by blowing up every scout he sees. As such, he'll typically be using laser, to which about the only answer for an early-midgame scion is an EMP warrior, or a scout, with stasis shields, and a lot of luck.
Making missile scouts more effective is just a final nail in an already rather tight-shut coffin for the scion early game.

the plasma magnetic effect seems interesting, but it'd be making it into somewhat a lighter version of the Sonic Blast (just a slight bit worse) - seems a good idea though, that or increasing the speed of the plasma shots so you don't have to be aiming a mile infront of them to get a hit in.The damage/range seems fine to me as it is

The main reason why Deflection isn't used so much is that it gets eaten alive by Blast.
Without any shield, the warrior takes 600 damage per Blast hit. With deflection, it takes 800 - a significant amount more. (statis only reducing it from 600 to 500, and absorb all the way down to 300)

Absorb however dosen't suffer NEARLY as much of a hit from kinetic-based weaponry. Shad damage does 180 to light armor, but 200 to absorb - and Chain damage is normal.
Seems the drawbacks of using Deflect are far greater than those of using Abso, especially considering the main late-game combat weapons are energy-based.

How about:
Increase damage from kinetic weapons (chains, shad) to abso, but reduce energy damage (mainly from blast) to the Deflection shield so that there's more choice involved in shield selection rather than knowing one is clearly far superior to the other.

Anglelwing I absolutely agree with your shield
ideas. Make the choices work properly, rather
than the lopsided current advantage to Abs.

I disagree to make scion-plasma shots faster,
the target-leading is a crucial and fun part of
learning to use scions. Even scion iongun has
a slowish shot speed and looks very scionish.
If you speed up the plasma shots you are simply
making it nearer the minigun in aiming, no fun there.

angel, you do know that the damage to sheilds is only exactly what it says in the odf for none armor, for light or heavy its ratioed down/up

It is? do you know the ratio? i'm pretty sure I take more damage with deflect+light armor than light armor by itself.

The ratio is only applied when light armour is used in addition to shields. Since a warrior has no armour at all, the damage it takes when using certain shields is exactly the value read in the odf.

I like the plasma 'joggle' idea, it'd certainly be more interesting than just upping damage.

Remember one thing though - even if plasma fired as fast through the air as mini does - 2 scouts firing at each other (WITHOUT faf) would still kill each other at exactly the same time. 1800 health and 200damage/second mini, vs 1200health and 300 damage/second plasma. thunderbolt is larger, drone is slower... If plasma DID travel at the same speed as mini, and FAF were taken away (hypothetical here) it'd still be a pretty fair fight now that lag is reduced.

i didnt know warriors had none armor, was sure they had light

Then comes PB2 and everyone says----Oh hoot!! we have to start over-----

heh heh

Scion plasma being slow is an early game weakness of the scions that counters its late-game strengths (blink). A scion player is forced to fight defensively to survive his opponent, since plasma is more effective if the scion is retreating backwards.

As to PB2, any balancing can be done with recy variants. I'm almost certain that Timevirus will make one of his famous MP mods that will make 1.3 PB2 far better then 1.2, now that a lot of things can be configured.

Quotesince plasma is more effective if the scion is retreating backwards.

not always, since the scion scout is more sluggish its harder to dodge with it while moving backwards

the best way is *if you can* jump right on the isdf scout and be literaly on his ass - or, get them to chase you on a hill (a tactic that works for ISDF as well)


blink: activation and only then being able to blink to the spot you looked at when activating sounds alright - but sounds like it'll need DLL tweaking and not simple ODF changes
if its like mag its still a problem, people will learn that at 30-35 they should start pressing fire-special, if things gets worse they just blink like they intended too, if not and they ok they just look up and realse fire-special


shields: if you touch absro and tweak it down statis will be the shield of choice preaty much always, right now it looks like that statis does almost as good as a job as defle (I know it doesnt but being at risk of getting owned up by laser, blast, shads and other energy weapons you'd rather go for statis and take alil more hit from kinetic and alot less (in compare to delfection only) from energy weapons)
tweaking the shields isnt gonna be an easy task IMO
touch one and it effects the other two

faster plasma -
problem with faster plasma is it'll make it much much more useful vs tanks as well
and faster plasma is like giving scions minigun that just looks diffrent and is considered as a cannon - even though it might work cant say I like the idea

chain eats through stasis :P

also, each weapon's damage to certain sheilds can be tweaked individually, not sure if PF knew this (he is teh noobiest :D)

About shields, they could be Assault/Combatted...  that is, you can have Stasis in Combat mode and shift to Deflection when morphed...

Would that add to the mix or just make it more muddled?

-Av-

Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamE on November 24, 2005, 07:04:47 PM
blink: activation and only then being able to blink to the spot you looked at when activating sounds alright - but sounds like it'll need DLL tweaking and not simple ODF changes

Actually, I meant activate Blink, aim at where you want to Blink to, wait for it to charge itself, Blink.

And uhh, we can't do anything other than change Blink's ammo cost with ODF's, we need to modify the source code to get any major changes to it like the ones mentioned here.

As per a post a few pages back, yes it is possible to have the dll apply some damage, or death, any percentage of the time blink is used...

If any changes are to go into blink, then it should be split off into a seperate classlabel (ie: blink2, chargeblink) in case some mods or game types need the old behavior back

Requesting variables:

rateCharge = (numeric) // ammo usage for initial charge
rateFull = (numeric) // ammo drain if Blink remains fully charged
timeCharge = (numeric) // needed time before Blink reaches fully charged state
autoFire = 1|0 // Enable or disable automatic usage when full, somewhat like PB1 chargegun behavior

Requesting optional variables:

targetingEffect = (fileName.effectName) // effect replacing ground sprite
xplBlinkStart = (fileName)
xplBlinkEnd = (fileName)

statis is at the top of the tech tree for Scions so having it a slight bit more useful wouldn't harm it that much. The damage to Statis is fine as it is IMO, (and a statis warrior just isn't going to last long against a blast/chain sabre in most cases) it's just the other shields that need balancing out.

Using Statis most the time would make sense as it reduces ALL types of damage, just not by very much (and it FAR from makes them invincible). Right now the shield of choice is Absorbtion.. pretty much always.. only really being ditched when the enemy decides to go all-out projectiles (rocket tank spamming, chain, etc), and even then they'd rather use statis over deflect so they're not jumped on by a single blast/las sabre (noting that the lasers would also be doing 500 damage per hit on top of the 800 from the blast) and owned within a matter of seconds.

Stasis only requires the Dower. Absorbtion requires the Kiln and Stronghold, Delfection needs the Kiln and Antenna.

ehh, oh yeah :P /me hides

There is no way any of you can honestly say you have come to any kind of agreement on Balance based on the last 10(ten) posts in this topic.

This subject can never be resolved for 1 main reason:

No two opinions about this game are the same.

Plus the remaining 10% of all opinions are from players wanting to replace skill with semitry and absolute fairness.

Sorry no such thing.

Don't mind me just continue to waste your time.

DS, if you got nothing nice to say then please do us all a favor and shut up

Sorry PF, as much as I respect your opinion on this topic ds is right.

Right now you all are aiming at a moving target that's warping worse than a 28Ker. Best bet would be to put all balancing discussion on hold until you firmly have PB2 in hand.

what would having pb2 in hand do?
the balance is the same regardless

Quote from: Spawn on November 25, 2005, 10:35:29 AM
what would having pb2 in hand do?
the balance is the same regardless

Your knowledge of the subject, which may be better than the next person, still does not get him to agree with what you think is best for the game.

PF is so caught up in the subject all he can see is my interference, but the truth is nobody here has agreed to anything and nobody here will ever agree to a proper balance.

A game is only a game when all players can agree on how it is played.

Where there is no agreement there is no game, only arguement and debate in endless supply.

The balance debate is only going to kill the game by offending others.

You want proof? look at the archived forums. This has been tried before and the results are still not complete.

Moderators please close this topic.

Still, it's not like we're harming anyone by discussing it. If you think it's pointless, fine, don't post, but locking the topic accomplishes nothing. Maybe if we were throwing insults at each other and it degraded into "I play more so I know better" etc (which it hasn't) it would make sense.

As for a moving target, I can't see a real reason why there'd be such a major difference in Balance between now and the release of PB2 that it's not even worth talking about. Granted it's not going to be exactly the same, but it's not like you'll be playing a completely different game either (and the majority of values remain the same anyway)

Deadscion - please stop posting here unless you have something to add, and stop requesting that moderators lock topics that are absolutely 100% ON topic.

Hell, the reason I stopped posting on these boards so much was because there was never anything about the game posted on here. Get a topic that IS on topic, and an insistant pest will not cease to complain and try to bring it down.

DarkFox you of all people know all too well how damaging this balance discussion can be.

It causes a rift of differences which takes too long to repair.

I see history repeating itself while the younger players see no harm.

This needs to stop before it gets out of hand.

Nuff said.

nothing is out of hand, and the only insults being thrown around are by or at you.
if you just want to complain about how balance makes everyone kill each other, then start your OWN thread about it and quit hijacking this one

stasis vs isdf isnt that good, its good vs early laser, but relatively weak vs any higher tech weapons, or even chain.
not too sure how it is vs pulse or super stabbers, or even plasma.  will making plasma not useless mess up scion isdf balance for early game?

So as I see it there are three (of course there are more)
nice modifications to try out first ;

Nerfed Blink, either charge-up/delayed trigger
or a big ammo cost.

Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Shadower damage to Def shields reduced.

Are we all thinking along vaguely the same lines ??

I mentioned the shadower/Def thing from the
weapn point of view because that is how the
game sees it. If we look at things from just
the sheild point of view we can imagine far-reaching
effects of shield changes, which is NOT the case.

Having Lived throught he "Balance Wars" discussions of 1.3 private I think (to a degree) DS does have a logical point.

Looking to balance 1.3 now IS Aiming at a moving target. I think the idea that Balance can and will be tweaked is a viable and necessary idea to explore....but balancing now, w/o actually having a fairly relaiable testbed(a newer PB) makes real fixing near impossible.

I'd only suggest that real testing of ideas come along when a real PB 2 is here...THEN real testing of ideas can happen and real progress can begin...When it comes to DS second idea about the difficult in balancing because "everyone has different ideas"...well..that to is a valid concern, however, I'd say once a second PB is out there a accurate assesment of the"state of the game" is determined, and THEN a short list of balance tweaks be expermimented w/ in hopes of TWEAKING 1.3 to find a proper balance...Wholesale revisions of weapon, vehicles, build trees is a recipie for possible disaster. As has been said before, ISDF V Scion Scion vs Scion, Early game vs Late game Offensive vs Defensive balance in (many cases) all consipre to work against eachother.

I am not saying "Don't try to fix it" I'm just encouraging "Tweaking" the second PB  to taste, NOT re-inventing the wheel of BZ 2.

guys, its not like we're changing the current PB, if anything, APCs is changing the stuff in the private beta (I think) and the private beta and public beta2 (when it'll be released) wont be all-that difrent, and most this balance talk is stuff that was in 1.2 (afterll, almost all the examples and our knowledge comes from 1.2 games --> due to the fact they STILL exist, and will STILL be existed in 1.3 PB2)

DR - Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Shadower damage to Def shields reduced.

nonono

plasma with joggle effect will be terriable!! tanks are having hard time to kill those pesky scion scouts now because of their warp, 2 scion scouts on a tank and he'll have no chance because scions can hit isdf tank almost perfactly without missing
unless theres a way you can only make it joggle vs none armor - and I still think thats a bad idea


shadower damage to def shields reduced? I dont know, I'm still unsure about that - but I guess that could be tested

As long as this stays on topic and remains a polite debate about the effectiveness of weapon combinations, various weaknesses, and helpful well-thought-out suggestions for change I see no reason to lock it.

That's regardless of how possible or impossible anyone thinks balancing this or any other game is.  To each their own, and some of us like tilting at windmills.

That being said I've already learned some new things, and can see where a newbie or two might also learn from the words of those who came before them...

-Av-

If we decide on a group of changes that we more or less agree on I'll submit the changes to 1.3, as a recycler variant or as a replacement for stock assets, whatever seems best.

I would highly recommend you stick to a Recycler Variant as the main goal so nothing permanent becomes an oversite others would not approve of.

As wide as opinions are on this subject just as many will disagree with any changes as would agree.

Seems wiser not to inconvenience others no matter how much sense it makes to you.

Yeah Phoenix I get your point about the joggle against
Sabres.
Against scouts, since most shots miss the effect could
be to even up the fight. Against Sabres however, I
don't see them suffering from scion scouts at the
moment. Against laser, scion scouts still die.
I say Try the joggle, simply because I'd like to see
the effects and would find it great fun to test.
I am biased of course, since my favourite scion
weapon is the humble scion-plasma.

As for Blink, do we agree that it is a very scionish
special, useful and appropriate for getting around the
map quickly, but we want to see its use as a
fight-escaper REMOVED ??

just had another game vs scions, they got full-teched - 3v3 and I was about to own them but then we got AVed

had 6 rckt tanks, a pl-las-mdm-prox tank for myself, both my guys in empty chain (who owned statis shield, on head to head I fought and scared every warrior that fought me [warriors had arc-guass-blink-statis]  they got OWNED by chains)
4 trucks and some chain rats ready to go for their base... we were on 2 pools about 40 mins of the game and surprisngly lost more ships than them most game

even though they had blink we were about to win - after 65 mins ingame though, so they had everyting they wanted, the other com said he had 20 archers he was about to send - but I realy doubt that - maybe though


the more I play vs scions the more I think blink is getting over-rated, sure, its abit unbalanced and annoying to fought vs, but its defentaly not unbeatable-that-got-to-go weapon, it can be countered!

yeah, chain eats stasis, its really only good early on vs laser and late game hadeans

Actually the more I hear about "Chain Scouts" the more they sound like the new "Plasma Sabres".  Still, it sounds like chain is too powerful period...  this from a guy who loved the FE 'Heavy Chain'...btw...

One thing to note is that Chain and Shields can be used by AI, while Blink cannot...   :)

-Av-

Damn fine read indeed, who said balance discussions couldnt be fun  :wink:

Hmm currently balance is 3rd on my list, Although i can't give any of them as much time
as i would like

1.Physics
2.Fe
3.Balance

Roosters list looks like a interesting start, When PB2 is out hopefully we can get some good balanced
teams testing out some issues.

Quote from: Dirty Rooster on November 25, 2005, 12:12:44 PM
Scion-plasma with SLIGHT joggle effect.

Or; we could give Scion Plasma a very short lived EMP Stream effect. That way it would make the enemy skip a shot or two every so often..

But since no-one here seems to have the urge to start on this whole thing before PB2, we may as well wait.

i can help :-D

problem with EMP stream is it seems to be very specific in the code (and seems to be a quick hack put together out of the anchor class) As far as I know the duration can't be modified at all, so tweaking it can only be done by changing the ROF of the plasma cannon.

Joggle effect would be okay if it were small and it didn't cause directional warp (as with the Arc cannon, famed for completely ruining your aim) but otherwise it'd make their minigun somewhat ineffective at close range and would likely be too effective at disrupting much larger units.

Actually I just tested it with a "stickTime" of 0.1, and it worked just fine, making the enemy Turrets skip a shot or two (Hard to count at that rate of fire) with every hit. And with such a small window, it will be harder to mess up the timing of the slower firing weapons.

 I was just in a session and kept getting killed even though I was using chain, so I looked at the ODF.  Seemed a little weak to me, so I upped the  damage of it for all armor by 25%.  Seems about right now.

 :-o YOu...! what!?

Oh man, I got you so good... :-P

:roll:

now THAT was scary

*hits red with 2*4 with a few nails in it*

hehehe  :-D

Illustrates a point though, doesn't it?  What seems good to one may not (and most likely doesn't) seem good to another.  And therein lies the rub in balancing and why it is so important for as many of us as possible to provide respectful and rational input so we come up with a product that is as balanced as much as it can be balanced.  And well, of course, then again there's evil Natty.  :-D

Didn't we already know that?

 Some, not all.

QuoteWhat seems good to one may not (and most likely doesn't) seem good to another.

which means one of them has no idea what he's talking about
or both of them

Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamE on November 30, 2005, 04:38:06 AM

QuoteWhat seems good to one may not (and most likely doesn't) seem good to another.

which means one of them has no idea what he's talking about
or both of them

Er...

No.

I used to be owned regularly by "Lt. Wolverine", who favored a Bobcat and Mag.Ã,  He's the only player I've ever seen that could nail you mid air with a fully charged mag.Ã,  Every other Mag user favored dual mag 'bump and run' attacks, usually using a Stealth BDog Grizzly.Ã,  The cries of Mag being unbalanced were everywhere, yet here was a player using it effectively via skill rather than cheap tricks.

What works for one person doesn't always work for another.Ã,  Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, tricks and techniques, that work for them but not for others for whatever reason.Ã,  Everyone is only an expert in how THEY play the game, using gameplay that often conflicts or doesn't work for someone else.  You have to look at both the numbers (weapons stats, speeds, armor, etc.) and the players and realize that the combinations of all are infinite.

That's the beauty of games like BZ, they can be totally different for everyone who plays them.

It's just like driving on the highway.Ã,  Everyone you pass is an 'old lady', while it's the 'maniacs' that go whizzing by you...Ã,  Ã, ;)

-Av-

 Very well put, Av.  And, as always, with a dash of humor thrown in for good measure.

Any one of you guys could own me in BZ and I would never call it cheating because I recognize and accept your superiority with tactics and strategy.  Okay, I may curse a bit, but you'd never hear them.  :-)

Not all share that same attitude though.  Some do not like getting beat *at all* and, due to that, (and instead of learning from the experience) they will pull out the "you're a dirty cheater" card whenever their tactics and strategy do not work as well as others.

And it's in all games/situations too.  About a month or so ago, my entire squad was held down by a sniper in BF2.  No matter what we tried, he picked us off or got us one way or another every time (with a sniper rifle and a *pistol*).  I mean this guy was *good*.  Pissed us all off, but at the end, we all tipped our hat to the guy. [mumbling] the little prick...

So yeah, weapons don't always make the difference.  If I had SP/Laser and PF or DR or whoever had mini, they'd most likely still be able to take me.

Little old lady/maniac.  Ha!  Good one.

Me and aougli used to go head to head when testing REV.C for FE i would actually forsake using
my usual fighting styles and just slug it out, throwing a few variables in to allow for different fire
rates-leades etc and then also throw some counter units in the mix of varying weapon combinations.

It was a fairly damned acurate method of testing though all players have to be rational and "Not"
go down the "I can't handle dieing-Losing route" then follow it by a good old discussion in teamspeak.

Can't do it now though, He's been out of touch for a while and were starting to get a little concerned
in the clan.

balance between weapons is like 2 people with coins

give one person 10 coins and the other 15 coins
just because the the person with the 10 coins managed to buy 3 cars and the person with the 15 coins managed to buy one car doesnt mean the one with the 10 coins got more advantge
just like if I'd take a chain scout and fight AI / a new player in a blast tank
I'd beat the tank, but that doesnt make a chain scout better than the tank does it?

however, if you take 2 people - who know where to look for a cheap & good car then you'll see the real lack of balance
the person with the 10 coins will get 3 cars and the person with the 15 coions will get 5 cars


balance is not about what fits you that might not fit others, either there is balance or there isnt
there *are* few ways of balancing stuff - but either there is balance or there isnt.

Quote from: Avatar on November 30, 2005, 06:03:44 AM
I used to be owned regularly by "Lt. Wolverine", who favored a Bobcat and Mag.  He's the only player I've ever seen that could nail you mid air with a fully charged mag.  Every other Mag user favored dual mag 'bump and run' attacks, usually using a Stealth BDog Grizzly.  The cries of Mag being unbalanced were everywhere, yet here was a player using it effectively via skill rather than cheap tricks.

Just a quicky,

Most Stealth Tankers now in BZ1, and I think for the past few years, can easily takeout someone from 200m away, in the air, and in other combinations. Also there are Wolvie players who can easily rape a Stealth Tank w/ hornets/shads and the nav trick.

 Agreed.  That's why there's vet strats, as you all play at the same skill level (or close too it). If you all play at the same skill level, that eliminates that variable from the mix.  You play against me and the skill imbalance is obvious.

A good illustration of weapon imbalance is when Beavis drops into your base with Fountain.  No skill, but plenty of firepower=short lousy game.  And things that allow you to come and go like the wind with impunity.

Tech like that you should only acquire when you have earned it by acquiring/protecting resources which allows you to acquire technology which allows you to build up your forces.  So, I don't think it's so much that the weapons aren't balanced but that their acquisition is premature.

I think what does most people in is playing the other guy's game.  If you get sucked into his way of fighting, you'll lose every time.  if you engage a dogfighter and you're not, you're dead.

I wouldn't worry about Aougli.  I think I saw him in a bunker on Wake in BF2.

skills = knowledge

and if I can lets say, build an armory in 4 mins theres no reason in the world why you shouldnt after practicing and training

in the example I gave, 1 person knew where to spend the money while the other didnt
just like skills, one has skills and one doesnt, and skills are something you can gain, its not something that you are born with and cant change

Not really, knowledge is nothing if you get so nervy you don't know where to apply it (or if you're incredibly dyslexic), not everyone can think clearly in the heat of the moment, just as not everyone is born with super-fast reflexes/reactions.

 Well said, both of you.  I guess that's the difference beween skills and talent.  Kinda like watching Michael Jordan go up against Kobe Bryant.  They both have skill, but Michael has talent.

what does commanding have to do with basketball?
if you have terriffic reflexes it wont halp you command, you need to be able to think and predict, not just react

if you cannot apply your knowledge its not knowledge :-P

Okay, I have a quick question about Guardians here, followed by a much longer question about both race's turrets.

As I'm sure most if not all of you know, 1.3 reduced the Guardian's stock scrap cost to 40 from 45. Who here thinks it should be returned to 45 for both the stock and upgraded Guardian? I'll post the stats of the two turrets if you want. (That was the quick question.)

Now, for the other question. At the beginning of a game, Scions are supposed to have an advantage over the ISDF because they can drop Solar Flares on Turrets, correct? Now, because of 1.3's better AI, turrets had to be weakened in some way, so they were weakened in their head's spin speed, as I'm sure most of you have noticed. Now, since both the Guardian and the Turret were both reduced equally, Scions have lost a good portion of their early advantage, as the ISDF can circle kill the Guardians just as easily as the Scions can circle Turrets. It is also because of this that it is very difficult for a single turret to stop a fast unit. Now turrets can be placed in groups to reduce the effectiveness of circling, but no matter how large the group, a fast unit can easily speed through the turrets without sustaining much damage. Your thoughts on these issues?

 I think the turrets should be able to nail you if you get in their range.

QuoteI think the turrets should be able to nail you if you get in their range.

a simple thing that will easily destroy gaming
why? because if its unkillable when you get in its range at that low cost its gonna be raining turrets and everywhere on the map you go you'll get wasted because the other team sent turrets all over the map, its simple & deadly, so why shouldnt people send turret out?

Guardian should be back to 45 as they are stronger and I like the idea of scion scout costing 45 vs 50 for ISDF and rattler 40 vs 45 Guardian

Guardians > ISDF turret


and I dont understand the second question realy, its like what you described in ZST as well, only instead of circling it you need to hover it (with skills ofcourse, simple hover will get you wacked)

Well, fire up 1.3, go to IA Dunes (You as Scion vs ISDF), turn on bzbody, and move around any of the Turrets. You will notice that they can't turn fast enough to shoot you at close range, as long as you keep moving.

As a warning, Turrets are a VERY HOT ITEM...  tread carefully.

The general increase in AI capability is one of the big things the beta team argued over, with Turrets being one of the more specific cases.  Maybe look to ZST for turret guidlines??

If anyone cares, I'm very much in favor of turrets only being effective against starting units.  They have their place at the beginning of the game and after that let them take a back seat to the big boys.   So they should be decent against stock Scouts, mediocre against Sabres, and totally owned by Rocket/Assault/Walkers...

I do love a ring of Turrets in FE with Heavy Chain...  beauty...

-Av-

well avatar, the problem with turrets being effective against starting units is mass rats in the field.

you can send turrets to all the pools and the enemy cant kill them, the enemy will never be able to reach late or midgame by the time you can kill them

the zst rat would be way too powerful, it would be invincible now that you cant properly hump or rainbow a turret.  one rat would be immortal, this is not good fyi

I agree Avatar, but 1.3's turrets are only effective against scouts and light units when in spread-out clusters, and even then they cannot stop a fast unit from speeding past. All they can do is be placed in base, they can't be effective in the field.

You'd still be able to kill them, but it'd just take a lot longer to do without rushing them with a full-on high-speed mini/faf spamming. I never really liked it when people 'humped' turrets anyway, but rainbowing was a nice tactic. I dunno, I don't want them to be so bad that you can simply run circles around them like with 1.2 stock rats, but then I don't want them to never miss and rip you to pieces either. Could just modify the weapon on it I guess (being that it's the only thing on the ISDF team that uses assault guns) - so it'd still aim well, just not have such a great effect. I'd personally like to see a little Shotvariance on them, but that has the drawback of making them a lot weaker at their max range.

bring hover back and use ZST rats
best solution :)

Wise guy.

How does scalable turrets sound?  i.e. The available turrets get better as the tech increases.

Hmm, I imagine it's possible to increase the spin speed just enough to make it so only scouts can circle turrets, and even then not nearly as easily as they can now. That would make them better at stopping fast units from zipping by..

P.S. Does anyone else think the Guardian scrap cost should be restored to 45?

QuoteGuardian should be back to 45 as they are stronger and I like the idea of scion scout costing 45 vs 50 for ISDF and rattler 40 vs 45 Guardian

Guardians > ISDF turret

soo, yes :)

and I think it'll be a mistake to make turrets any better before we can see the new physics

 Turrets can only target one thing at one time, right?  So why are turrets attacked by only one unit?  While the turret is shooting at one unit, it should be getting hit from behind by another.  Send in a decoy to get the turret's lock and then nail it from behind.

That's a fairly effective way of knocking down turrets with scouts in PB1. One guy circles the formation while the other two kill the distracted turrets. I believe that pb1 turrets are perfectly effective, however if they are made any more accurate, then this tactic wouldn't work very well since at least one thug would be lost.

I would support an algorithm that prevents skill-less predictable moves (like wobble kills) and rewards skill and unpredictability; I have actually mimicked that behavior in 1.2 by tweaking the turning speed and AI aiming params of the turrets to overshoot its aim and then correct the aim. The wobbly behavior made it humanlike and prevented predictable maneuvers. Sadly, I no longer have that ODF, :cry: but at least it proved to me that something like that is very possible to do in 1.2. 

 I'll give it a whirl.

Turrets at 40/45, Scouts at 45/50?  How about increasing the custom costs/times a bit instead?

If there's just one thing that BF2 (Battlefield 2) has taught me, it's the importance of teamwork.  If you want to play lone wolf, you can, but it's much more effective playing with a cohesive squad made up of members with multiple capabilities.  I think what's the best is when you're on a squad and you're not even communicating via TS or text, but *everyone* is doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done and you are sweeping the opposition aside like dust.

I guess that's another factor in overall balance that needs to be considered.

Quote from: Red Devil on December 02, 2005, 09:46:26 AM
Turrets at 40/45, Scouts at 45/50?  How about increasing the custom costs/times a bit instead?

Slow down Red, we haven't even decided on anything yet. Except that stock Guardians should cost 45 scrap again.

We all havent decided anything yet.  I'm just *asking* for input.

I'm still puzzled by the headlong dive into the balacing adventure w/o having a working beta?...PB 1 is NOT the current beta, so why don't u see what the PB 2 is like then work from there?

Don't take this wrong...I applaud everyone for their civility (something sadly lacking in the closed beta) and thoughful ideas....but It just seems to make sense to actually have a playable beta that EVERONE Knows, before saying 'I'd try this" or "I'd try that".


When it comes to the actual FIXING again I'd urge everyone to work in small steps (perhaps 1 unit or even 1 weapon at a time) befoe proposing wholesale changes and then testing, w/ the "Change big fix later approach" how can you tell what really made something work well. ie, just change the cost of a gaurdian and then play a few games...see what impact the cost change has....the made ODF changes....Something along those lines.

Several of the posters here are on the beta squad Wardog,Hence were working with a
version thats close to final.
About those turrets, they suck in PB1 im amazed that anyone thinks theyre ok.
Problem is if they get tweaked much at all they may become overkill very easily.

Currently though i don't think we should be playing with balance, it all seems a unco'ordinated mess
to me, I'd rather just try annd get the Physics as good as we can with what we have available.

Finish the physics, get the release out and then have a balancing forum with set goals-threads
or we may just lose the plot here.

 We're pretty darn civil in the closed beta, WD.  Sure, we have bones of contention, but the pack is strong.  That Avatar's kind of a troublemaker though. We all know how *he* is.   :lol:

I want - and I'm sure all of you want too - is to bring more people into the BZ2 community, because, as we ll know, BZ is unique and the best engine out there and more people need to discover it.

What I'm afraid of is tailoring it to make stock vet-centric.  When we balance it, will our personal biases get in the way?  We all have our own personal styles and preferences and so we will all naturally tend to put more emphasis on those areas.  I'm guilty of that myself and have recognized it.

I'm also afraid of affecting Mods.

So that's what variants are for.  I'm sure that lots of variants will be made over time.  I can see each of us making our own personal variants and the ones that are played the most will be the ones that are the most fun.

I think we'll need to make Easy variants for new players (powerful weapons, easy AI), Intermediate variants for intermediate players, Hard variants for those who want a challenge, and Insane ones which provide - not insane weapons -  but minimal weapons and hard AI.

yeah, civil now that a large portion have left

you can throw two or three scouts against a turret, but then you are wasting scrap and people, and then the people who killed the turret are open to attack from the other team, allowing another turret to be placed back there and you get all the loose.  if you can get the loose from empties fighting, or even from a constant attack on your base it can give you an enormous edge in the game, you dont need pools if you have a steady stream of loose from the other or even your team.  in bf2 it doesnt matter where you die, sure, getting across the map takes time but you can respawn with your squad if they are still alive, but in battlezone if you die in the enemy base you could do more damage then good, for not only are you depleating your own team's recources but adding to the other team's.

increasing/changing custom costs/times wont do much.  turrets are left with mini almost always, with chain and laser they could be outranged, and if isdf gets arm they are jsut as likely to drop a chain from the armory then using shads

 Good ponts as always there, Spawnster.

Okay men, I've been working on Blink a lot and have it fixed.

What I'd like your input on is how far is too far to blink and how far is not far enough.

Fixed? I was not aware that it was broken...

Whatever.

Nonono, it's

"Whut-EVAH"

Put a decent pause where the dash is, and drag out the "AH" part of "EVAH" a bit...

I have a 16 year old neice so I KNOW what it sounds like...   :)

***

I would like to see unit performance as close to 1.2 as possible SOMEWHERE, even if it's a Recycler Variant, so that anyone (Vets or whoever) who depends on 1.2 will be satisfied with 1.3.

***

(Troublemaker, eh?  I'm going to have to up the Golem count in my "RedDevil" script...)   :evil:

-Av-

I know the Blink news comes as bad news to those who use abuse Blink, but, hey, so much the better.  The less B&B's we have in BZ, the better, right?  They'll either learn to "play nice" or stay with it in 1.2.  Nooo biggy.

To those of you who want Blink fixed, I need your input. We can't reveal the inner workings of it yet except to say that it works and it works well.  I just need input on the distance for now.

More Golems? Noooo!  :-o

Whut-Evuh!  How's that?

Could you better describe how Blink is abused? Maybe it's just me here but, I thought using a weapon to it's highest potential was a good thing. :lol:

See first post in thread.

Quote from: APCs r evil on December 01, 2005, 10:48:28 PM
P.S. Does anyone else think the Guardian scrap cost should be restored to 45?

well the isdf Rattler also costs 40 so both races can deploy defenses at the same amount of time & cost.

but the scion one is more powerful

Come on...  I'm trying to be quiet here... but I keep running into points...

This point is being able to make a turret or two out of the scrap of your enemies when you have NO pools, one smoking Scavenger, and a tiny bit of luck before the next attack wave comes.  A 45 scrap Guardian means you have to have at least one pool, they can't be made from loose.

This is the same reason I hate BZ2 Scavs being UN snipeable.  In BZ1 you ALWAYS had a chance while your Recy lived and you had ammo in your sniper rifle.  For me a big part of the fun of BZ is the fact that the underdog can come back from the brink and give you a good fight.

-Av they guy who doesn't play Strat but can't shut up-

sniping scavs in bz2 would be shockingly easy, especially when they sit in the field doing nothing
also at the very beginning of the game, your ship dies then you can snipe an enemy scav and cap their base pool.
could be interesting with hoverscavs though :-P

I have yet to meet ANYONE who would build a Guardian instead of a Scavenger or two when they have no pools. Even if I have my slots filled with Scavengers, if I lose all my pools I build two more.

The Guadian is FAR more powerful than the Turret, not just because of the health though.

[ISDF Turret]
maxHealth = 2500
maxAmmo = 3000
armorClass = L

{Assault Minigun}150m range
ammoCost = 2
damageValue(N) = 15 //300 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 12  //240 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 8 //160 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 12
damageValue(D) = 8
damageValue(A) = 15

{Assault Chain Gun} 120m range
ammoCost = 2.5
damageValue(N) = 15 //300 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 13.5 //270 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 12.5 //250 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 13.5
damageValue(D) = 10 //100 damage per second
damageValue(A) = 15

[Scion Guardian]
maxHealth = 2750
maxAmmo = 3000
armorClass = L

{Ion Gun II} 150m range
ammoCost = 3
damageValue(N) = 50 //500 damage per second
damageValue(L) = 30 //300 damage per second
damageValue(H) = 10 // 100 damage per second

damageValue(S) = 30
damageValue(D) = 50
damageValue(A) = 10

{Assault Gauss Gun} range 180m, near instant hit
ammoCost = 75
damageValue(N) = 200 //200 damage per second, 400 damage per hit
damageValue(L) = 190 //190 damage per second, 370 damage per hit
damageValue(H) = 160 //160 damage per second, 320 damage per hit

damageValue(S) = 180 //180 damage per second, 360 damage per hit
damageValue(D) = 140 //140 damage per second, 240 damage per hit
damageValue(A) = 200

As you can see, the primary Guardian weapons are far more powerful than the ISDF's primary Turret guns. So you can see that Guardians with Gauss Gun are basically miniature, mobile Gun Spires with no radar signature that can be crammed by the handful into narrow spaces. Hell it says right in the changelog that changing the cost could be a mistake,

- Reduced scrap cost of the Scion Guardian from 45 to 40, allowing it
to be built without any Extractors.  This may be a mistake.  [Ken]

Changed in 1.21 beta 12.

The guardian should be the same price as the rattler.

Why?
Simple - because the guardian does more damage (500 damage/second), but the ISDF scout has more health, meaning ISDF scouts die to scion turrets in about the same time as scion scouts die to ISDF turrets.

Against heavier armour, the guardian is less effective. Against scouts, it's about the same (due to the 1800health on the ISDF scout vs the 1200/900 on the drone).

Well yes but, can we really base this on scouts alone? Even though they are the units that are most affected by turrets.

 I don't think DPS can be based solely on firepower.  Accuracy, fire rate, ranging of opposing units, mobility, and location also have to be factored in, as well as the the hull strengths.

Been working on an idea to put all these factors in a formula.  Something like this:

Give a weight to each factor, with no factor's value being more than 2, then divide by the total number of factors and you should arrive at 1.0.  If it's over or under, then it's not balanced.  Still a rough idea and still working on it, but it's a start.

Quote from: APCs r evil on December 03, 2005, 11:44:18 PM
Well yes but, can we really base this on scouts alone? Even though they are the units that are most affected by turrets.

I wasn't basing it on scouts alone. I mentioned the fact that ISDF turrets are effective against heavy armour, even with their stock minigun, whereas scion turrets are incredibly weak against heavy armour.

Sure, someone is going to mention that guardians do more damage per second to tanks than rattlers do to warriors. While this is true, consider the mortar vs edging with iongun, and it's pretty clear that that's balanced too.

I guess you have a point there.

Now, what about the turning speed?

 Why engage Guardians/Turrets at all?   Easy enough to flood Guardians with cheap, quickly-built, heavily-armored Scavengers/Harvesters to draw thier fire while you nail them, take the pool and have reserve Scavs to gather the loose, not to mention waste the opposition's ammo and time killing the Scavs, plus the time it takes to go reload.

You can tell them to Hold to make them re-target.

The people holding this discussion act as if they don't like BZ2 at all.

QuoteThis needs changed, that is bad and I never liked it.

Soon enough every single issue possible will be discussed and how it will never be right unless it is changed.

Why do you even bother to play the game if you don't like it?

Meanwhile contrary disagreements to those proposed changes occasionally pop up because those things you want to change are enjoyed ---as is---  by the next player.

I will say this again, No Such Thing as a Perfect Game.

You will never come close to an agreement on balance, unless it is a very small group, and THAT, gentlemen, never properly represents most players.

     

@ds: go away.

didnt gaurdians originally cost 45 because they were meant to be as strong as an upgraded turret?  scions didnt have gauss back then, so gaurdians were either emp or ion2

Quote from: Spawn link=topic=5225.msg72406#msg72406 date=1*stupid*29503
@ds: go away.

didnt gaurdians originally cost 45 because they were meant to be as strong as an upgraded turret?  scions didnt have gauss back then, so gaurdians were either emp or ion2

This is not the kind of person who should be representing other players.

if you want to act like an asshole then feel free to, just do it somewehre else

 Yeah, he's a brat, but a smart one.  He doesn't represent BZ2, but he is a part of it.  Good point on the Guardian, Spawn.  Good points too, DS.

As for BZ2, it's more like a love/hate relationship:  It both exhilirates and infuriates us.  Drives ya crazy sometimes, but you can't stay away from it.  Kinda like some women I've known.  (don't say it Spawn)

If you tell them to hold and you get out of range, they reacquire.

Quote from: Red Devil on December 04, 2005, 12:09:41 AM
I don't think DPS can be based solely on firepower.Ã,  Accuracy, fire rate, ranging of opposing units, mobility, and location also have to be factored in, as well as the the hull strengths.

Been working on an idea to put all these factors in a formula.Ã,  Something like this:

Give a weight to each factor, with no factor's value being more than 2, then divide by the total number of factors and you should arrive at 1.0.Ã,  If it's over or under, then it's not balanced.Ã,  Still a rough idea and still working on it, but it's a start.

I've been toying with such a thing also, only as part of an ODF maker.  For a ship it'd automatically adjust things based on ratios taken from the rest of the existing odf's for a race.

For instance, to make a new tank you'd start with a tank template.  If you up the hull it'd lower the speeds automatically based on the values set for the other Heavy armor units... or ratios you've previously set.

I haven't figured out just exactly what to put into the mix, though...  right now it's more of a gut feeling than actual working code...

-Av-

Sounds to me like that would turn everything into an ISDF (Or Scion, I suppose.) clone.

the biggest advantage of more speed is that you can decide when to and when not to fight, the enemy would have no suck choice
that and you can warp better :-P

No, it's race-oriented for creating a new race.

Still, a lot of balance doesn't go by the numbers. Ã, Take 'blink' for a fresh example, how do you quantitize how it affects the battle?

-Av-

with good pilots, they dont need to build new ships ever
figure scions get about three extra pools for this

but if they start dying...

QuoteI've been toying with such a thing also, only as part of an ODF maker.Ã,  For a ship it'd automatically adjust things based on ratios taken from the rest of the existing odf's for a race.

For instance, to make a new tank you'd start with a tank template.Ã,  If you up the hull it'd lower the speeds automatically based on the values set for the other Heavy armor units... or ratios you've previously set.

I haven't figured out just exactly what to put into the mix, though...Ã,  right now it's more of a gut feeling than actual working code...

-Av-

I tried something like that with FleshStorm I had this big chart with just about every parameter I could think of on it, I tried to come up with a formula to make balance work but it doesn't really translate into practice all that well, a lot of what constitutes balance is impossible to nail down and what looks good on paper often just does not work well in practice . The problem with a game like BZ2 is that it is deceptively complex and every little thing affects everything else in one way or another, it's impossible to see the full ramifications of the changes you make without intense testing with experienced players, balance is not a science it's an art .

In the end I had to scrap most of my perceived balance tweaks and just go with what the testers were telling me, this meant making a lot of changes I would never normally have considered, but it seemed to make the players happier which is what counts. For the record I don't consider FleshStorm to be very well balanced but when introducing 3 new playable races it was always going to need a ton of testing which wasn't really possible given the reletively small size of our community. I think we made a decent stab at it though and hopefully if the mod is popular enough the community can make it's own balance patches to bring it inline with what the players want and what they find the most enjoyable.

Still balance by numbers makes good sense since many Team Stratters demand near perfect semitry from the map layouts.

vehicles classes:
light(not including turrets and  guardians)
fast, light weapons, light armor

medium( sentry, missile scouts, etc.)
medium speed, medium weapons, medium armor

heavy (assualt tanks, walkers, etc.)
slow, heavy weapons, heavy armor

defense classes

Light( turrets, guardians)
medium( none to my knowledge in strat)
heavy( gun towers, gun spires)

Seems like fire power and armor for offense and defense should match and other numbers like speed set according to the class of vehicle.

cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Blink was somebody's great idea without much thought given to how much different is was to the rest of the game.

Otherwise Blink would not be getting this much attention in this discussion.

If Stratter are going to insist on semitry in map layouts then they will also want semitry in their war machines as well.

It's my guess the perfect Stratters balance would be exactly by the numbers or both teams using the same race.

As you say, Lizard, very deceptive.  There are many layers to BZ2 as opposed to HL2 or other games out there.  I mentioned only a few balance factors before and it looks like you've got the expanded version.  From what I can see, there's these hard factors (probably left something out)

Weaponry  (of which, Dark Fox is the recognized authority) consisting of Cost, Hull Strength, DPS=(Ammo Cost, Fire Rate, Shot Speed, Shot Variance, etc.) 

Mobility

Scrap and Scrap Rate

Build Times

Terrain

And the fluid, dynamic, SAS/Marines/SF factors that *really* hose things up:

Strategy

Tactics

Imagination


I guess what it all boils down to is skill level.  A skilled player will be able to make something out of nothing as much as an unskilled player will make a mess out of everything.

Gotta start somewheres though, right?  If the weapons are balanced, that's the main thing.

Avatar, I was going to use Christiaan's as a base to grow on.  Sounds like you're way ahead of me though.

Good point on the medium defenses.  Never noticed that before, DS.

Quote from: deadscion link=topic=5225.msg72442#msg72442 date=1*stupid*42773
cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Perfect balance would be boring as hell. You build one thing, the other guy builds another thing;  you send them both to the middle and they kill each other at the exact same time. Whoopy.

gun towers/spires are more medium defences
for heavy it would be things which could take out heavy units, so other heavy units, atlas, rocket tanks, ass tanks with blast, splinter if it didnt suck, acid archers in 1.3
more or less units, not structures

the reason why maps are similar is because that is easier for the mapmaker.  you can make maps which arent symetric but are balanced, a few of the IX maps are like this, but some are just unplayable too

or you can have a map that IS symmetric but isnt balanced, the simplicity map make by RMX, that is symmetric, but the fact taht one base is above the other makes the higher base invincible adn the lower one left with units climbing up walls from bad pathing

Quote from: APCs r evil link=topic=5225.msg72452#msg72452 date=1*stupid*46435

Quote from: deadscion link=topic=5225.msg72442#msg72442 date=1*stupid*42773
cloning the races you say? well what else do you think a perfect balance would be?

Perfect balance would be boring as hell. You build one thing, the other guy builds another thing;  you send them both to the middle and they kill each other at the exact same time. Whoopy.

The game type is called Team Strategy. Also as Lizard pointed out paint by numbers balance does not always work.
This is because targeting, weapons fire to target delays, manuvering to keep from being a target requires skill.
The best balance you can hope to achieve will be based on unskilled players, beyond that one will always find a guy who is more talented then others at perhaps a certain weapon or ship.

I know for a fact DarkFox used to make it all look easy, probably still can.

When both teams use the same race, and one team wins the battle,( provided nobody cheated) it is usually because the winning team used more skill and team work then the other team.

Perfect balance only helps the noobs, the vets use something else to win.

I stand corrected symmetric( thanks for the correct spelling) maps or not necessarily balanced maps.

god DS you have no idea what ur talking about you should realy just shut up

the balance should be between 2 people who know the weapon in and out, how to best use it and how to use in the most efficently way, that way you see everything about the weapons
2 newbs will just sit and shoot at eachtoher without moving
take sonic blast vs FE laser, if 2 newbs would use it I wont be surprised if the sonic blast will win
but if it'll be between vets the FE laser will win cause it can dodge the sonic blasts (I just threw random weapons) you seriously havnt got the slightest clue of what ur talking about...

Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamE link=topic=5225.msg72476#msg72476 date=1*stupid*76548
god DS you have no idea what ur talking about you should realy just shut up

the balance should be between 2 people who know the weapon in and out, how to best use it and how to use in the most efficently way, that way you see everything about the weapons

Only 2? and you think this will represent most players?

This will represent 2 vets with personal opinions unlike anyone else.

I am saying skills make up most of the game, and skills vary way too much to measure  balance adjustments.
Most balance opinions by experienced players are nothing more than their personal opinion about gaming issues they dislike and you can not please everyone.
The rest is all generic and should be adjusted that way.
This is the only acheiveable balance.

There will always be someone who can use a weapon or ship better than you.
There will always be someone who will holler ---Not Fair--- when someone is better than you at some weapon or strategy.

I don't know what I am talking about? Haven't you ever bothered to listen to any after game complaints?
---what so and so did was not fair---So and so: that was to fair just good skill---
Blah blah blah
Happens all the time and the next thing you know the loser is complaining about balance or something being too much of a disadvantage which needs to be fixed.

Balance issues are never about the game just about stuff you personally don't like about the game.


Again generic adjustments are the best balance you will ever acheive.

QuoteOnly 2? and you think this will represent most players?

phrased it badly, tested by at least two people who know what they are doing...


you are too blind to read between your own lines DS

there is no reason in the world why I for example, can kill a turret with a mini scout when others cant, no reason in the world, just because a bunch of newbs cant kill a turret does that mean its unbalanced?
thats just bullhoot... if one can do it then so can the rest, all you need to do is find the one who uses stuff most potential and see how he deals with stuff, if he can so can the others

QuoteThere will always be someone who will holler ---Not Fair--- when someone is better than you at some weapon or strategy.

true, but is it not fair or is it just a fault of his lack-of-skills? if someone like that will take the time to actualy improve instead of crying he'll see its damn fair


how about I tune turrets to kill everything in 1 shot how about it then DS? is that balanced too? according to you - it'll be perfactaly balanced but people wont like it

I don't want to see this thread locked, so tone down the emotions here...    :x
***

There will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game.  That's why I ALWAYS ask for options, and 1.3 is an options paradise...

Let's take my favorite example, TRIBES/TRIBES2.  I'm sure UT and Quake suffer from the same issues....

When Tribes first came out most of us couldn't even get up on a ledge in Heavy Armor.  Then Allesandra shows us how to make a jump when jetting and suddenly everyone is on ledges in Heavy.  Balancing jetting for newbs would have meant, in this case, Heavies jumping to the moon once they developed their skills.  That would have been a bad thing...

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A LEARNING CURVE, and hopefully Vets will step up and help the newbs develop their skills because games die really fast when this doesn't happen.

***

Balance in a game is often done by the Beta group, who are never given the time or opportunity to develop mad skills in the final game engine.  Once the game is out for awhile what usually happens is that obvious exploits and imbalances are addressed, but the 'Vet vs Newb' issues are harder to settle. 

In the case of BZ2's 1.3 patch the Recycler variant gives us unlimited levels of skill, which should be used to balance gameplay for both new and Vet players.  ('tho I wouldn't call one a "Newb" Recy, or nobody will use it.)  :)

-Av-

I still do not understand why people do not use the recycler varients, it only makes sense, doing it any other way does not...  Stupidity mabye (dare I say)?  Mabye ignorence?  Yes I am trying to drive these people to try them out, they are just too useful. :)

"The problem with a game like BZ2 is that it is deceptively complex and every little thing affects everything else in one way or another, it's impossible to see the full ramifications of the changes you make without intense testing with experienced players, balance is not a science it's an art"

Again....a brilliant assemement of BZ 2 and the prospects of any attempted rebalancing.

I only say the same thing I've said may times before, start small w/ universally accepted "Unbalanced items" and work slowly to fix that 1 unit or weapon, then move onto the Next "Universally accepted" unbalanced weapon or ship. After the 3 "unviversally accepted" fix....Stop...your done...

Unless you wanna be doing this till I'm 50...and that really isn't that far away....

But they'd still need to be variants of 'something' - if it's a 'variant', it isn't stock, unless you eliminated the 'Standard' mode completely

I also think having multiple balance variants will just create a bigger divide. You'll have people who play and stay true to one or the other, and games may fill up a lot slower due to people disagreeing with the 'variant' of gameplay. (i'm sure we've all experienced the times when an 'unknown' joins your game and immediately requests to change it to an MPI, even after kicking him 5x)

 Been reading what PF and DS have said and, believe it or not, it sounds like you two are saying the same thing, just in different ways.

As I was trying to say in my previous post that there are differing levels of balance.  First, you have the base factors, like weaponry.  Then you move on to the timing factors, and then to the implementation of all those factors in a game setting where the various *use* of those factors come into play.

Maybe people aren't comfortable with making variants.  If you guys need a variant made to suit your playing style, I'm sure we could help you make some after PB2 is released. You can really go crazy with them.

What would everybody say if 1.3 were like 1.2 with all the added features (and then some)?  The best of both worlds. For those of you that have seen Lizard's FleshStorm and Fishbone's DuneCommand, you know what I'm talking about.  For you that haven't, it'll be worth the wait.  As Lizard said, balancing three new races was almost impossible. 

The best you can do is get them to where the physics and weapons are very playable, release it, and then involve the community in the balance discussion where you get more eyes and hands on it.

QuoteThere will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.Ã,  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game

This is an issue I feel rather strongly about, because people always seem to miss the big issue - If a new player plays a game balanced for vets, he always has the option to just get better. There's always away for a new player to beat another new player in a given game - increase in skill.

At the vet end, though, there isn't such an option. Most BZ2 uber-vets are at at least, I'd say, 95% of their maximum skill level. They're learned every trick, their aim is close to exact, their dodging as good as it possibly can be, ad their kowledge of strategy rather all-emcompassing.
If such a vet goes into a game with another similarly skilled player/team, then is faced with something that he just can't beat, it can often be because it's not balanced for them. With no option to adjust in skill (get better) the beaten player is left with one option - use the same technique. Before long it will commonly be called 'abusive', not just by a oe-off whining game loser like DS mentioned, but by the vet community at large, and with no way to beat it, they have to ban it instead.
Flying mortar bikes were such an issue, as was base hovering. There are other issues of balance agreed by the vast majority of veteran players, such as the early-game scion weakness, or the power of blink. These things should be balanced.

As for the newer players - well, first of all, they'd benefit because vets wouldn't be able to run rings around them with overpowered tactics (such as blinking arc/gauss warriors trapping them in base, or locking them down with base hovering). Secondly, if there's something they really don't want to reproduce, they can always just learn a counter on their road to being a better player.


In summary, I'd say all this talk of 'vet balance' vs 'newb balance' is an unclear and unconstructive way to look at things. I find the best way to look at competitive videogame balance is simply to look for strategies that, when taken to their fullest potential, cannot be countered. If you find such a strategy, either:
a:  weaken it so that it CAN be countered (eg 1.3 mortar bikes or turret circling),
b: make something else more specifically powerful against it so that it can be countered (like ZST turrets shooting hoverers),  or
c: just take it out completely (eg 1.3 hovering).

Locking scions down in their early game is a tactic that cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a tone-down of laser, or by giving scions a counter (like giving stock sentries absorbtion shields).
Using blink and hunting in the late game is a tactic that (marginally debateably) cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a chargeup blink, a slow-firing somewhat random destination blink, or the removal of blink completey.

Whether you're the newest of the new or the most experienced vet in the world, you will not beat these tactics if they are executed by a half-decent vet, and as such I view the vets vs newbs argument to be redundant. These issues need addressing no matter how you swing it.

 Dark Fox, since you are the expert in weaponry, I'm going to ask you: what is a good range for Blink and how often should you be able to get Blink capability back again?

As I posted before, the issue with blink isn't the transportation ability, it's the fact that it saves you from a tight situation.
Trouble is, if you ramp the ammo cost up high enough to make dogfighting with mind to blink away impractical, it means you can't really use it for much else either.

That said, if it really *had* to be balanced in ammo cost and reload terms, I'd say give it a firerate of about 3 minutes, but keep the ammo cost nice and low (about 1000ammo base, but 0 extra cost for distance). That way, it could be used as transportation, but if used in a dogfight the enemy would have a chance to chase you down and finish you, and more importantly you wouldn't be able to blink back to them after you collected your pod.

Is the chargegun idea still not washing with the devs?

Highly, highly doubtful

I'm still unsure about blink being too powerful as you guys put it, before we touch it I realy want to have a series of games. 4v4, I'll let whoever is cmding get blink and we then play

Yes, we really should do that sometime.

Red, don't you think you should let DF know a little more about your Blink?

 No specifics. I'm just going to say that it's working the way you wanted it.  That and that GSH has really done some wonderful things with BZ2 since PB1. I think maybe Ken and the other guys have been contrributing in the background too, but not sure.  I just needed to get some initial base figures from you is all.  Be nice to have some wider input from everybody on some base figures for handling and other weapons too.   Just need a wider sample is all.

After PB2's released, we'll all have a nice big balance fight and go from there.  :-D

I like your definition of balance, DF.

As of right now Red I'm neutral on your Blink, but the nature of it concerns me.

Please elaborate (on the PB2 board please).

I apologize if I have offended anyone, however this topic has become a damn fine read.

Bottom line to this topic as Overmind put it, if you use a recycler variant for this balance study, you can do what ever you want without affecting anyone in a negative manner.

Would be interesting to restrict the number of blinks that can be on people at one time, like limit it to one, mabye two with another tech upgrade of some sort...?

 The beauty of it is that you can make it any way you want it.  You can have just one or you can have a Blink-O-Rama.  You won't be stuck with anything.  If you want it different from stock, just stick it in a variant.  This puts the power in your hands.

Ack..   :-o

C'mon guys...  think SCION...   make it short ranged but fast recharging when in Combat mode, and far range but slow recharge in Assault mode...

:evil:

-Av-

 The Sci-on-na-toor!

Quote from: DarkFox on December 05, 2005, 10:35:14 AM

QuoteThere will ALWAYS be an issue with skilled vs non-skilled players.  The idea of having Vets balance a game is just as bad as having Newbs balance a game, in fact it virtually assures that no new players will play the game

This is an issue I feel rather strongly about, because people always seem to miss the big issue - If a new player plays a game balanced for vets, he always has the option to just get better. There's always away for a new player to beat another new player in a given game - increase in skill.

At the vet end, though, there isn't such an option. Most BZ2 uber-vets are at at least, I'd say, 95% of their maximum skill level. They're learned every trick, their aim is close to exact, their dodging as good as it possibly can be, ad their kowledge of strategy rather all-emcompassing.
If such a vet goes into a game with another similarly skilled player/team, then is faced with something that he just can't beat, it can often be because it's not balanced for them. With no option to adjust in skill (get better) the beaten player is left with one option - use the same technique. Before long it will commonly be called 'abusive', not just by a oe-off whining game loser like DS mentioned, but by the vet community at large, and with no way to beat it, they have to ban it instead.
Flying mortar bikes were such an issue, as was base hovering. There are other issues of balance agreed by the vast majority of veteran players, such as the early-game scion weakness, or the power of blink. These things should be balanced.

As for the newer players - well, first of all, they'd benefit because vets wouldn't be able to run rings around them with overpowered tactics (such as blinking arc/gauss warriors trapping them in base, or locking them down with base hovering). Secondly, if there's something they really don't want to reproduce, they can always just learn a counter on their road to being a better player.


In summary, I'd say all this talk of 'vet balance' vs 'newb balance' is an unclear and unconstructive way to look at things. I find the best way to look at competitive videogame balance is simply to look for strategies that, when taken to their fullest potential, cannot be countered. If you find such a strategy, either:
a:  weaken it so that it CAN be countered (eg 1.3 mortar bikes or turret circling),
b: make something else more specifically powerful against it so that it can be countered (like ZST turrets shooting hoverers),  or
c: just take it out completely (eg 1.3 hovering).

Locking scions down in their early game is a tactic that cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a tone-down of laser, or by giving scions a counter (like giving stock sentries absorbtion shields).
Using blink and hunting in the late game is a tactic that (marginally debateably) cannot be countered. It could be fixed with a chargeup blink, a slow-firing somewhat random destination blink, or the removal of blink completey.

Whether you're the newest of the new or the most experienced vet in the world, you will not beat these tactics if they are executed by a half-decent vet, and as such I view the vets vs newbs argument to be redundant. These issues need addressing no matter how you swing it.

I haven't been actively playing for a while but this is how it was:

ISDF: Mod-easy early game, Moderate mid-game, Moderate late-game
Scions: Difficult early game, Mod-Difficult mid-game, Mod-Easy Late game

The very balance of BZ2 stacks late-game in favor of the scions to reward them for surviving to reach blink, and having to put up with weak starting weapons and expensive tech. I do not think that it is a good idea to increase blink costs too much, but I did like the suggestion of a slight delay. Even a hold cost (with an x-low drain) would be another good thing to implement. But I do not think that balance should be emphasized too vigorously lest you make a mistake of overbalancing as with what happened during the 1.1 -> 1.2 transition.

Good analysis there on the difficulty transition, ZA.

Normally, I wouldn't post about what's going on in PB2, but since this will have a lot of impact, I need a wider input sample before it's released for public consumption.

The power for Blink is independant of weapon power.  You can choose to either use your weapons and then get out of Dodge or you can choose to use Blink, use your weapons, and then try to escape on your own.  The Blink distance is a total.  You can make multiple jumps adding up to the total or you can use it up in one shot.  It  recharges slowly now, but can be made to recharge at any rate.  The range is at 175 now, but, as I said before, can be any distance.

That sound like what it should be like?  If so, I need ranges and recharge times so I can come up with reasonable averages.  By reasonable, I mean not equivalant to 1.2 Blink.

Aside: When someone overuses Blink in 1.2, are they known as Blinky The Clown?  Or maybe Blinky The Own?  Sorry...

Well Red after some more thought, I have decided that I dislike your Blink.

Why? You can't Blink long distances, this makes it useless for travelling about the map, the thing I like most about Blink.

Quote from: Zero Angel on December 06, 2005, 12:24:33 AM

ISDF: Mod-easy early game, Moderate mid-game, Moderate late-game
Scions: Difficult early game, Mod-Difficult mid-game, Mod-Easy Late game

The very balance of BZ2 stacks late-game in favor of the scions to reward them for surviving to reach blink, and having to put up with weak starting weapons and expensive tech. I do not think that it is a good idea to increase blink costs too much, but I did like the suggestion of a slight delay. Even a hold cost (with an x-low drain) would be another good thing to implement. But I do not think that balance should be emphasized too vigorously lest you make a mistake of overbalancing as with what happened during the 1.1 -> 1.2 transition.

this is pretty accurate, but there is one more half step to late game.  when scions get blink and begin to win, isdf can still come back, but only if the isdf commander made rocket tanks already.  the isdf will eventually take back the map if the scions take too long to end or cant find out how to end it well

I guess you didn't read what I wrote then:

Quote from: Red DevilThe range is at 175 now, but, as I said before, can be any distance.

That sound like what it should be like?  If so, I need ranges and recharge times so I can come up with reasonable averages.  By reasonable, I mean not equivalant to 1.2 Blink.

Quote from: APCs r evil on December 06, 2005, 12:34:32 PM
Well Red after some more thought, I have decided that I dislike your Blink.

Why? You can't Blink long distances, this makes it useless for travelling about the map, the thing I like most about Blink.

well, using red's concept you could easily make a blink which operates independent of a ships ammo, can go as far as you want but can only be used every X seconds, regardless of the ship

thats basicially what it is, but it requires new features added to work correctly, and the X seconds could be bypassed by picking up two crates or having a few spare warriors lying around, but taht is a minor thing

what do you think X scould be?


also, on the subject of recycler variants, they often dont make the game more fun, they can easily ruin many aspects if the host is a jackass (aka fountain enemy base by uncommenting a few lines).  Also, if you have a seperate download and assets for all this, there is a chance of bad assets, installation problems and other small, but annoying complications.

175m is a waste of Blink unless you are running from an enemy. It is much more efficient to use the EMP pull to travel around at those distances. I'm talking 300m+ Blinks.

I, too, like the idea of being able to travel around using blink, but not using it in combat. The travel thing is a good strategic element, but the combat ability of blink is what makes it a game-spoiler.

I like blink for it's ability to escape. I occasionally use it to GET to places, but mainly as a guarentee that i'll live.

As i've said before making it independant of the ship's normal ammo may have some negative side effects - it'd be far more likely to be used in combat if there wasn't a cost involved (whereas normally you'd want to conserve as much ammo as possible) other than the lack of an immediate escape and generally simplifies it too much; you don't have to save anything so can just use up all your ammo and blink back to base (i'm still in favour of long-ranged blink, btw) without having to worry that you've used too much.

 Crates and SB/Dower (as they are) wouldn't resupply it, so you would have to wait.

Blinking back to base would be akin to what it is now, so that probably won't happen.

About the variants. If people make variants that make for a lousy experience, people just won't play them (or with that host) any more.  Given a choice, people would rather have afun than not.

As for the variant downloads, yes, there's a chance that assets could be overwritten if they are named the same.  Cfg's too.  That's why people would need to be careful when installing and variant makers coordinate with each other which is pretty easy.

Blink is good for escape??,,,,,,a one sided one race escape tool??,,,,,,ISDF has nothing like that for escape,,,,,,how do you adjust nothing to balance an adjusted something??,,,,,this is not logical,,,,

Isdf has something just as bad?? as bad as a tool to help you run away from a fight??

Apparently the reasons players like blink are exactly the same reasons players don't like blink.

These statements are not mine they are yours,,,,or maybe I should have used quotes,,,

 The question is, how far should you be able to Blink (max) and how often?  If it's only 10 meters once, no problem, just Blink.  If it's 1000 meters whenever you feel like it, probably not so good.

To me, it should be used like a jetpack/ejection seat when you get in trouble (you just take your smoking ship with you is all) and a short, I dunno, say...150-200 meters.  Enough to get away, but still be possible to be in harm's way.  You still have to limp home.

I'm sure it will be adjusted after it's out, but for now all we need is a good starting point to go on.

i dont need blink to escape, i just need my ping :). But yeah, i do think blink needs some balancing... kinda on what RD just said...

Well if it's going to be a 'one time' use thing then using it to get away would seem the best option. It's a lot better to come back from a fight crippled than as a pilot. Complaints about blink wern't --just-- about their ability to escape, as that in itself, whilst incredibly useful, is far from unstoppable. The fact is blink as it is helps with pretty much everything, from pool killing to hunting to disrupting serviced assaults to even full-on base assaults and chances are, with a blink, you'll stand a lot better chance of succeeding, with the only thing preventing it's overuse to the extreme being the ammo consumption.

I do like the idea of a long-recharging blink, though, I just think it should use SOME ammo, at least. Also think Avs idea about the combat/assault modes would fit, as it'd mean you'd have to morph to assault mode before doing a far-blink back to base, which is akin to a time delay, or the chargegun idea.

I think you're all judging blink too early before ever seeing scions get owned by them quite badly (exept DF maybe)

in my last 4-5 games vs scions I let them get blink, they left me on 0-2 pools for 30-60 mins and I came back and owned them...
in some of those games the cmdrs were no match and they only made it to blink since I slowed down my process for testing - so far it worked for me
but I still cant completely make an opnion about it because 4-5 games are not enough... and espicely when I'm the only one taking notes


I got a question to you all
have you ever seen scions with full tech lose not to a rush? vs 4 blink warriros... more than 30-40 mins ingame

 Not sure I understand your question.  Scion vs Scion?

Phoenix, I have never been in a game of
Scion v ISDF 1.2 where after 40 minutes and
blink, the ISDF won by a non-Sabre-rush.

There.

In that situation what often happens is an agreed
draw by mutual frustration.

I would like to TRY blink as the two-mode weapon,
with long-range low-ammo cost in Assualt mode for
getting around the map on pool-duty and commanding,
but REMOVE its 'escape' use in combat mode. In Combat mode how about a short-lived VIR effect of, say, 5 seconds?
Some ideas.
My older ideas still stand too.

The slow-recharge idea allows 'escape' use but does
NOT allow multi-use to get around the map. Not so
good to my ideas of why the balance is wrong so far.

This, "Late game frustration" sounds like a weakness in the Archers to me.

But were you testing in 1.2?

Quotelong-range low-ammo cost in Assualt mode for
getting around the map on pool-duty and commanding,
but REMOVE its 'escape' use in combat mode. In Combat mode how about a short-lived VIR effect of, say, 5 seconds?
Some ideas.

This solution sounds excellent, I'd love to see that. It'd be akin to a chargeup effect, but integrating the scion morph dynamic into the mix as well, and it still functions to stop scion players blinking when they're on red health to avoid death. Plus, the ISDF player gets some warning that their opponent is going to blink.
Not being able to attack while morphing adds another 'cost' to in-combat blinking. The solution is brilliant in my eyes, and the ammo cost of assault blink, if this solution is implemented, can be rather low while still retaining balance.

in fe i have gotten scions to full tech against hads just to have them take over the after we do (though my team wasnt the smartest)

could have won if we kept them on one pool, but the only other person who realized that was on the other side of the map, so i had to be everywhere at once, not very easy and eventually i got bored :-P

Soooo, how about some ranges?

*Whispers* I think we left maximum ranges behind.

Not to my knowledge.

We should leave them around. As long as blink can't get you out of range in a dogfight, it's ok, that means plenty of range is fine, provided the morph is needed before use.

Requiring morph before blinking is a drastic solution, DF.  The 5 second charge idea is better:

1) User fires blink weapon
2) It auto-charges for 5 seconds (accompanied with effect and sounds)
3) Blink occurs

It would add an interesting predicament to dogfighting. Mostly though, it would prevent a person from blinking out last-second in a close dogfight. And in a base raid, they would have to predict the correct time to blink out.

Yes, but I don't think we can count on that.  :cry:

isnt morph about the same thing? but its three seconds...

Okay, I have a Combat Blink and an Assault Blink ready.

Combat Blink only goes a short distances and takes a long time to recharge, depending on...

Assault Blink can go a short-long distance and can take a short-long time to recharge, depending upon, guess what? 

That's right, ranges!  If you guys don't give me some, I'll make up my own.

But not from you though, APC's.  You're sarcastic and a wet blanket.  I want to hear from the ones with the most skill level.

Even if you just blink 100meters in combat mode, it's enough to ruin the scion special selection, and overpower them in the late game. That said, 50meter with 1 second recharge for every 5 meters travelled sounds about right, and a basic cost of 400 ammo.

As for assault blink - I'd say about 1 ammo per 2 meters travelled, with an additional 150 ammo for firing the blink no matter the distance, and no recharge time at all.

Oh, and is there any chance static charge can be made to prevent missile locks, similar to VIR? It'd make the late game more interesting for scion v ISDF games if the scion player had to choose between anti-missile and blink, and on the ISDF side it'd be interesting to have to 'cover all bases', rather than just pump rocket tanks.

Thank you.  :-)

This Blink doesn't use any weapon ammo, so that might cause you to revise your numbers some for Assault Blink.

For Combat Blink, that's 100 meter max  with 20 seconds to full recharge (with smaller jumps totaling 100 meters possible).

I'll look into the SC thing.

Completely agreed about having to make more choices in choosing weapons/units.

That is a good solution, RD. Start the Retreat, blink away 100m, morph, then assault blink to really get away. To distract shadowers, why not just give solar flare a high image signature?

That is what Seekers are for.

Good point, ZA.  Because with SC you might incur upgrade costs too, depending on ship?  Dunno.

Been playing with this Blink.  Interesting watching the recharge work by pointing the recicle at something and holding down the mouse button until the energy level reaches that range and Blink becomes active.

Anyone know of a map without so much fog in it?  Trying to see where the Assault Blink is active. Set at 330 meters now which is long ways anyways.  Guess I could increase the view distance.

300m wont get people around the map! I'd ramp that up significantly if I were you, and I mean *way* up. If they're not dogfighting you (assault mode), then let them travel around.


As for stopping missiles with seekers or solar flares - I agee with the principle, but in practice it's hard. The solar flare will only attract missiles that do not have to lock on, and the seeker HAS to have a tiny profile to stop if from hitting the ship that laid it instantaneously. This tiny profile tends to make it so bad at stopping missiles they usually travel right through the thing. If one of those could be fixed, then that's cool, but if not, it might be worth tweaking static charge.

While I'm on the subject I just felt like reminding you, RD, that the scions are too weak in the early game (far too weak), mainly because of FAF missiles, laser and MDM. I know you're probably looking into that, but just in case you aren't, I wanted to remind you. Feel free to not acknowledge this paragraph to keep things hush-hush about development.

Thank you.  That 300 meters for Assault is more like 330 after I used dual navs to measure it better.  Recharges to full range in about 35 seconds, in which time you could probably drive that distance, if not farther.  :-}  So, I'll reduce the recharge rate because I can't see very well past 330.  Except if I just use the reticle change to guide me.  I'll go try that now.

Now approaching having unlimited Blink in Assault due to the recharge rate being so high, so that's probably not going to be so good.

Red are you still working on the physics or are you just going to do all of this work alone?

EDIT: On Seekers, missiles can't hit Seekers because of an XSI bug. The HP_COM is outside the collision box. (The light is the stuck on the HP_COM.

I found a way to make Splinter do very nearly the same amount of damage to units that are far away from it as it would to those right next to it. The only questions are, how much damage should it do, and should it spin around while it fires like in 1.3 and BZ1, or just fire all the bullets simultaneously and in all directions as it does in 1.2?

Oh, and how many shots should a Tank get with it?

Red Devil, you seem to be ignoring the posts
which ask for long range for assault Blink.
That sounded harsh, sorry.
Long range would be similar to 1.2 standard Blink,
i.e. it teleports you to where your reticle is
pointing, including the other side of the map when
there is a wall. You can't see your target, but you
still blink there. This is a GOOD thing incase you
are unsure. This would enable you to blink to
pools, areas of combat, home to base, etc. This
is what I want, and I seem not to be alone.

So, let me put it this way ;
For Assault Blink I would like the maximum Range
to be not less than 600m, more like 800m

 Wasn't ignoring.  Just finished saying I was having a trouble with the visibility, so it was hard to adjust beyond that... Was asking for maps with more visibility too...  Using the math now.

Problem I was just talking about was the unlimited Blink.  With Blink before, you'd use up weapon ammo, so you were limited in your Blink capabilities until you got a pod, truck, or bay.

Doing this while waiting for ftp to be up.

I don't see why Blink shouldn't use the weapon ammo. Just make the combat version use a  ton of ammo, and the assault version use very little.

Working pretty good now.  Assault Blink at ~900 meters so far with about a 30 second recharge, so it basically increases your drive speed by about 30%, not to mention getting away from danger.  Combat Blink same as before.

I'd like to see the combat blink have a quick recharge personally, maybe not instant but anything over 8 seconds seems a little too much. If it isn't going to be used for escape (the purpose of the assault version) then it'd need a quick recharge time else it's just a tiny hop which -may- give you a slight one-time advantage, but otherwise wouldn't do much. What I mean is so that it can be used offensively in dogfights - ie: repeatedly blink every few seconds so to disorientate the enemy and make them briefly lose your position, allowing you to hit them from the side or behind whilst they turn around, with the obvious penaulty being ammo consumption (which would NEED to be in effect in this case to stop it being overused)

Read what I said.  I said you could make multiple little jumps adding up to the max range and it's recharging all the time, albeit slowly.

Quote from: Angelwing on December 10, 2005, 09:43:53 AM
I'd like to see the combat blink have a quick recharge personally, maybe not instant but anything over 8 seconds seems a little too much. If it isn't going to be used for escape (the purpose of the assault version) then it'd need a quick recharge time else it's just a tiny hop which -may- give you a slight one-time advantage, but otherwise wouldn't do much. What I mean is so that it can be used offensively in dogfights - ie: repeatedly blink every few seconds so to disorientate the enemy and make them briefly lose your position, allowing you to hit them from the side or behind whilst they turn around, with the obvious penaulty being ammo consumption (which would NEED to be in effect in this case to stop it being overused)

A dogfight advantage is not balance.

Yes it is DS.

Please RD, I think we're losing the point a little here with the recharge rates...

Allow scions with blink to 'hit and run' enemy pools or bases, but don't allow them to instantly save their own lives in combat.

This can be done in 2 ways -
a: Combat blink should be SHORT range. I don't mean 100m, I mean something SMALL like 40m, put that right down to about 20m if it's going to be ready again in less than 5 seconds. This is enough to confuse the opponent in a dogfight, helping the scion player befuddle him or get some nice shots to hit side-profile, or assist an escape, but it's not enough to just instantaneously get out of range of his weapons. (Consider that most combat takes place at or near max weapon range).

b: Assault blink should not only be LONG in range (3000m), it should also recharge quickly, and probably eat ammo as well. Can't you make assault blink exactly like it is in 1.2?


See, having it take long to recharge would remove the ability to hit and run pools etc, so scions would just be at a massive strategic disadvantage due to their lack of mortars, with not enough advantage from their 'hit and run'.
If, on the other hand, it is quick to recharge (less than 15 seconds), then blinking to hit pools would become TOO powerful, since you wouldn't even need to recharge much ammo, a scion team could use strip the map of pools in no time, and ignore the dogfights altogether.
As such, an ammo cost is the best solution for assault blink.

Quote from: DarkFox on December 10, 2005, 04:45:42 PM
Can't you make assault blink exactly like it is in 1.2?

Easily.

I hate to draw attention from Blink but did you see my post regarding Splinter?

You guys talk about how useful blink is to Scion race, but nobody is talking about what is useful to ISDF in dogfights to balance this out.

ISDF is just supposed to put up with your Blink without any sort of counter attack?

If you are going to talk about balance it means equal capability.

I guess I will just have to create a Recycler variant of my own with no Blink or MDM and be done with it.

There is no justifable way to give the dogfight advantage to one side and not the other.

DS,ss a brief summary - weapons ARE balanced in 1.2 when scions have blink. The dogfights ARE fair when there are evenly matched players using blast/chain against arc/gauss.
All this talk of blink you witness are ways of makking it LESS powerful, which isn't for the sake of dogfight balance, it's so that scions can't just give up the 50% of the time they lose.

As for MDM - this would only need balancing if scions couldn't fight it off. In the late-game sonic is a perfect counter to MDM. In the mid game it's an issue, but simply because ISDF can keep the scion team at bay with lasers so that they can't get out there and shoot the MDM-wielding tank, an issue we'll probably see balanced with something like giving sentries absorbtion shields as a stock armament.

Or, as an even-briefer summary, the dogfights already ARE balanced, and will remain just as balanced if blink is modified, because short 20m blinks to confuse the opponent can be used in the current 1.2 games, and don't unbalance the dogfights.

Excellent objective feedback and analysis, DF.  You too, AW. Exactly what I need.  Points off for using "disorientate" though.  Sorry, pet peeve.

As I understand it:

Short hops for Combat Blink not using weapon ammo, with a short recharge rate.

Lonnnnng jumps for Assault Blink using weapon ammo (non-recharging).


So,

If you use Combat Blink, you can bounce around short hops like a Daffy Duck and use your weapon ammo to fight with.

Once out of weapon ammo though, you won't be able to use Assault Blink to escape.

If you have weapon ammo, you can use Assault Blink to make a long jump.  But once you arrive, all you can do is hop around.

That about right?

make combat blink be able to go 40m every ten seconds or soemthing of that sort

Was trying it out last night and realized we'll have to reduce or eliminate the explosions.  Wound up right back where I was when I got there, which is kinda counter-productive...  Works well otherwise.  :-)  Just need to know how many jumps should Assault Blink get on its ammo.

About the same as it does in 1.2 will be right RD. i think it's about 200 ammo plus 1 ammo per 2 meters, but that's just from memory.

As for the explosions - I assume you're talking about blinkin and blinkout right? Their damage is ok, but their push effect should be removed IMO. The scattering of service trucks from blink is a little ridiculously good for stopping a serviced assault.

Okay, I have Combat set at a max of 40 meters every 5 seconds (personally, I think that's a little too quick, but peeps with ADD might think it's too slow) and Assault is 1.2.

Quotebut peeps with ADD might think it's too slow

...

It's not a bad thing, Squirrel.  People with that just think quicker than the rest of us is all.

that is probablly much too fast...

the problem with reds blink is that it dosent use normal ammo, so while it cant be refilled with pods it can be used with zero effect on normal ammo

Yep, if it's going to be that fast at regenerating, make it a 20m blink, but to be honest it'll probably do people's heads in with BZ2 warp. I'd suggest going for 10 seconds, but keeping the max range at 40m, if you make it any more it'll be an escape mechanism, and that won't do will it?

Sorry, I misread Spawn's post.  Thought it had read 5 seconds for some reason. [kicks self]

I'm not sure about the 20m hop, in the heat of combat you might not know where abouts --exactly-- 20m infront of you is, so could end up either doing a much shorter hop (10m) or none at all. 40m seems good though

Quote from: Red Devil on December 11, 2005, 12:35:56 PM
It's not a bad thing, Squirrel.  People with that just think quicker than the rest of us is all.

No, no no... 

Typeitlikethiswhentalkingaboutthat...

:)

-Av-