Battlezone Universe

Going to be posting a physics tweaks zip link here soon.

It's going to include some other things too:

Combat and Assault Blink

Crate lights adjustments (so the light points don't stick out the sides)

Ability to pick up shield crates when morphed into assault mode

Other stuff I can't recall.


Edit:

I'm not saying these are the definitive physics tweaks,  Just posting them as a starting point and proof that the physics can be improved upon is all.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 06, 2006, 11:43:04 AM
It's going to include some other things too:

Ability to pick up shield crates when morphed into assault mode.

OK, how are you doing THAT?   :)

-Av-

Dude, I posted that about three months ago in the private board.

Okay, here's some physics tweaks and some other stuff (about 7KB)

Easiest way to see things quickly is in Loot with all units (except pilots) selected and ANy race selected in Extra Options.  That way you don't have to go through all the trouble of base building, etc.

Please give me suggestions for improvement if you like.

(link removed.  See later post)

Forgot to describe the Blink thing.

It was done in response to requests from Darkfox to balance Blink.

It functions pretty much like 1.2 Blink in Assault morph, but has limited local ammo and recharges slower in Combat mode, so you can't Blink around when dogfighting.

Mmmmmmkay, i was expecting a gameprefs.ini...this lot goes where? And it wont screw assets up? just checking...

EDIT: Krap.  saw I had a duplicate file in there (FVscav in the root of RD-Tweaks - delete it or re-download/unzip)


Here's an updated one.

Unzip it to your main BZ folder using the "Use Folder Names" and select ALL files.

It will give you bad assets if you try to join a game where they aren't being used.

To deactivate them, just drag the RD-Tweaks folder out of addon and out of your BZ install.


I included:

My Thumper and put it in a DM Scout (Thunderbolt) so you can check it out.

Pools with some low bubbly sounds.

Pilot crates that don't have the light points sticking out.

Constructor with increased collisionRadius to possibly help with dancing.

Oh!  That's right. :-}  The other units have collisionRadius added to them to help with spreading them out/pathing.


http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001235.zip

Fixed dupe assets problem in zip.  See previous post.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 06, 2006, 12:01:33 PM
Dude, I posted that about three months ago in the private board.

Like I have time to read lately...   :)

-Av-

Slacker...

Hmm, yeah, I have TWO eyes and TWO hands, I should be able to code AND read at the same time!

:roll:

-Av-

Sorry guys, I am having a bad day today.  Keep stepping on my own feet.

Anyways, here's a new link. 

I added the missing crate light colors and added a modified ISDF bunker where you can zoom the view in and out.

I swear, this is the last link I'll post today!

(Link deleted by RD.  See most recent link in this thread)

(slacker)

the ai is like binky or very jumpy still. not so sure what to say had to leave game to do a feq things but rd can explain more. and when i exited game and re-entered mp 1.3pb2 i noticed before that it had 2/14 then 2/4 no so sure if its the server or me. and ai would also attack then it would die even when it had 0 health.

 I included the wrong Thumper. The most recent one is much tamer.

If you want people to stop ignoring you please use don't use run on sentenes GM.

the odf's ive reviewed have several bugs, lights removed, etc. The thumper changes into laser_a????

the scout has needspilot = 1, thats an invalid typo, should be "needPilot = 1"

ill look more and see what i can find.

I played with them, and i like the feel of the scout and such not. They feel more realistic, i must admit that, and feels like it hugs the ground, but it seems to jump too easy / high when ramping off a cliff. Dunno if thats just me or what.

Keep up the good work, sorry for a long day :P

I hope that you will go over these again before you release them as finished.

Thanks for the feedback, GBD.  I wasn't very careful when posting those assets.  I'll go through them better next time.

Quote from: Raven on March 06, 2006, 01:34:47 PM
Mmmmmmkay, i was expecting a gameprefs.ini...this lot goes where? And it wont screw assets up? just checking...

Installing any of Red Devils Assets will cause bad assest. Red Why dodn't you just turn this into a recycler variant to avoid bad assets for the physics tweak testing so it won't ruin things for some players...

Quote from: GreenHeart on March 07, 2006, 12:42:11 AM

Quote from: Raven on March 06, 2006, 01:34:47 PM
Mmmmmmkay, i was expecting a gameprefs.ini...this lot goes where? And it wont screw assets up? just checking...

Installing any of Red Devils Assets will cause bad assest. Red Why dodn't you just turn this into a recycler variant to avoid bad assets for the physics tweak testing so it won't ruin things for some players...

Are you kidding me? You mean he didn't do the variant like he said he was? RD, maybe you hit your head harder than you thought. :roll:

I sure hope you fixed the msl scouts RD. The masses may be less forgiving than the beta team. ;)

I think he may have released this as sortof a "beta" and not a final. I assume he expects the community to be smart enough to test it only with those that also have it, and know how to remove it. :P

There are two ways to remove Red Devils Tweaks.   

The first way would be to delete the folder "RD-Tweaks" from your addon.

the second way would be to reinstall a fresh copy of bz2 & apply the pb2 patch.




Also those that are testing Red Devils tweaks bewared that Red Devil gets cared away with whatever he touches so their are more files that should be tweaked in his RD-Tweaks folder.  why he hasn't just created a recycler variant for the mpi & strat without the extra files is beyond me.

This is what's known as a "Fruedian Slip":

bewared that Red Devil gets cared away with whatever he touches  

He gets "carried away" because he "cares"...   :)

Beware!  Code Elves from Enthusiastic Fans come...

-Av-

Good grief...

People complain about physics.

I don't see *anybody* doing *anything* about it.

I put some assets out there that show that they can be improved upon, plus some other fun assets.

Big deal. It's in one main folder that anybody can click and drag to remove.

I'm getting tired of doing that though, so I think I'll just start putting them all in addon like you do, Greenheart..

Better yet, I think I'll just add them to the Pak file and make it a lot easier on myself.

Here's a link to the most recent tweaks.

The Thumper is much saner (less fun though..)

Fixed the needPilot entries (thanks GBD)

I'll hold off on adjusting the jump.  Lights were reduced before due to people complaining about framerates.

Anyways, some of this stuff is just provided as a taste of what can be accomplished. 

We should seriously focus on the physics and balance now that a work-around has been found now.


http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001241.zip

I think everybody knows what needs to be done to get more people playing 1.3, and those who I've spoken to say it's possible to revert most of the changes done to 1.3, so it will be more like 1.2.

I'm talking about; ships physics, terrain-bouncing, multiplayer warp-smoothing.

These are the three main issues that need answers, and I think you guys should try to address them. Come up with concrete solutions to each of those three, post them and get feedback.

Spawn has already started work on those, so you guys need to team up.

"We"...  and by that I mean the active beta team members most of which AREN'T strat players, DO know what the issues are. 

The problem is that those that want it "fixed" are the critical ingredient in the mix.  Not much can be done without a pool of them to test the changes and guide the modders.  It's not just a question of putting some odf numbers back to 1.2 values.

Getting a representative group of them together that are willing to DL and test, DL and test, DL and test, is the hardest part.

It's all about the feedback.  :)

-Av-

Just to back up what Avatar said, there are quite a few of us in the community with both the necessary skills and the willingness to help tweak this patch into something that all of us can enjoy. But it's almost impossible to produce something that will please everyone if we can't actually tell what it is they want, we could just make a bunch of random changes but it would be like stumbling around in the dark, it would be very arbitrary as to whether we actually managed to get anything right .

The process of getting things right is a process of refinement where YOU tell US what you percieve the problems to be then we go away and try to put those issues right, then you test etc. and you keep on repeating this process until eventually we get it right . It may take a bit of time to get things perfect but it's far from impossible, it'll take cooperation from both sides of the community to achieve it effectively but I have no doubts at all that it can be done .

My only real big worry with this patch was the multiplayer warp issue, but as this has now been resolved I see no reason at all why things can't be modded into something that will make us all happy .

Yes, I would love some good, CONSTRUCTIVE feedback...  (sorry)

Got some good feedback from GBD and Spawn, but little else.

Still not sure about what you were talking about last night, Spawn.  Do you mean the inertia after taking your foot off the gas?

It's easy, compare the difference of 1.2 and 1.3, you'll know what to fix.

Regarding ship's physics, I agree, that's more of a trial-and-error thing, but the other two I mentioned are not.

The major gripes about things, including whines about how turrets aim & shoot, come down to one major question:

Is the behavior you want impossible, or is it just not the default?

Sadly, I think many people have put their pet gameplay styles as a point of pride, and have gotten majorly offended when their pet bugs aren't enshrined as the default out of the box.

-- GSH

Quote from: GSH on March 07, 2006, 10:42:42 AM
The major gripes about things, including whines about how turrets aim & shoot, come down to one major question:

Is the behavior you want impossible, or is it just not the default?

Sadly, I think many people have put their pet gameplay styles as a point of pride, and have gotten majorly offended when their pet bugs aren't enshrined as the default out of the box.

-- GSH

Pet bugs?

Yes, that is why I need - nay, crave - input from as many people as possible, to get a large sample.  That way, my personal preferences don't overshadow the physics and balance and the majority rules.

Also, some may think it's tedious work testing physics and providing good, constructive feedback, but just think how tedious it is doing the actual editing of hundreds of files.

Pet bugs is like gameplay styles.  I've run into so many objections on doing things because it changes the way some people play. Drives me cuckoo.

I'll put that ground bounce thing in and see how you like it.

Quote from: appel on March 07, 2006, 10:40:25 AM
It's easy, compare the difference of 1.2 and 1.3, you'll know what to fix.

Easy to type, but hard to do.  No two of us see/play/feel this game the same way.  I'm perfectly happy with the current physics including the ground bumping, and I challenge anyone to prove they spend more than the almost six hours a day I've spent cruising around in the engine over the last two weeks as I frantically try to get my mod done.  Seriously, the dogs are starting to growl at me when I come out of the computer room...  I have to let them sniff me and give them a minute to remember who I am. 

Some nights I have BOTH computers going and am actually running both keyboards to compare physics between BZ1 and 2.   :)

It can't be done by the numbers, by just tweaking odf's.  It has to have human feedback to the changes.

Seriously.

The best thing I've seen yet was that map with a bunch of differently configured Scouts on it.  MP players could hop in, bop around, and vote on which Scout they liked the best.  To me that's perfect, as it gets the assets out there side by side to compare whenever someone can get people together to do it...

-Av-

Thank you.  At last, someone...

I can't release a variant without people agreeing on the basic physics.

I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't:

  If I release a variant where the people don't like the physics, it dies on the vine.

  If I post stuff to try to get feedback on physics, people start running around like Chicken Little saying I'm killing BZ2 and causing bad assets.  Well, duh!, of course you're going to get bad assets if you're not testing them.

  It's nucking futs I tell ya...

I've had a DM up for the past 5 hours BTW.

Here's an update. 

Delete your old RD-Tweaks folder before installing this one as I added some folders for organization.


Please use a server message saying you are using these test assets.

What's new:

Since pings and lag are so important in testing now, I added a cfg I made that gives more room to the values so they aren't all scrunched together and are more visible, especially against a light background.

http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001252.zip

Just finished up a couple hours worth of play.  Now that people have had a chance to check out Thumper, I'll remove it from the next download as people were just going nuts with it.  :lol:  It's still too powerful (sent Walkers across the map).  Next version will be weaker and lots more expensive.

I'll add a Mass setting to Walkers so they are so susceptible to kicking.

Mortar Bikes and Sabres were warping a lot.  Pings were ~250.

People like the expanded scores window, but I have to expand the player name area.

Next download will have the bump removed or lessened and the Scouts given a little more horsepower to see how that goes.

Awww...

QuoteSince pings and lag are so important in testing now, I added a cfg I made that gives more room to the values so they aren't all scrunched together and are more visible, especially against a light background.

I would like to test the warp part for it. like what it does with high pingers.  :-)

Everybody please remember to either ip ban squirrel or set the default maxping to under 1000 if testing warp/lag.  He makes any accurate measure impossible.

Posting this the second I saw it.

[ E X C E P T I O N ]
Patch 1.3PublicBeta2 Feb 28 2006 09:00:21
Type: ACCESS VIOLATION
Info: READING from 0F672004h
CallStack:
0040BBCD +0099 bzone.exe EXE AttackTask.obj protected: void __thiscall AttackTaskP::WaitState(enum AttackTaskP::StateMode)
0040B941 +0537 bzone.exe EXE AttackTask.obj public: virtual void __thiscall AttackTaskP::DoState(void)
00320000 +320000 [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown]
6E756854 +6E756854 [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown]
0045E582 +0000 bzone.exe EXE AirCraft.obj public: virtual void __thiscall MeshEnt::UpdateIntSpherePosition(void)
61D99806 +61D99806 [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown] [Unknown]
Registers:
EAX: 0CABD5FCh   CS: 0000001Bh  DS: 00000023h
EBX: 0E8E9E38h  EIP: 0040BBCDh  ES: 00000023h
ECX: 0EAA2A10h   SS: 00000023h  FS: 0000003Bh
EDX: 0F671EA4h  EBP: 021CF274h  GS: 00000000h
ESI: 00000000h  ESP: 021CF254h           
EDI: 0E8E9E38h       

I was heading towards a missle in a building. Thats when I aved.

You were heading towards a missile in a building...

You were in a building, headed towards a missile...

You were headed towards a missile that was in a building...

Nope.  Not getting this...   ???

-Av-

Oh thank goodness, I thought it was a side-effect of vapors I created earlier, maaaan that was a beautiful light show.

FINE....

[attachment deleted by admin]

Lol...

OH!

Sorry...  I'm old and tired...

-Av-

Oh hoot, the vapors made me old and tired!

Here's a link to the updated assets.

Thumper removed due to people having too much fun with it and getting distracted.

Speed increased on ISDF/Scion DM Scouts.

Bump removed from DM Scouts.


Please post constructive comments.


http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001255.zip

Tried ur latest build, hard to tell that are the physics improved. I think ships should turn as fast as in 1.2, otherwise people think that gameplay has gotten more worse.

Is it possible to make ships stay in the air longer ?
And is it possible to remove terrain collision ?
That terrain collision is like stumbling in a 1st person shooter game, really annoying. :( Propably not so big problem if people play with automatic leveling on, but who does.


If prementioned things could be adjusted, majority of experienced strat players would accept the patch i believe.
Even though the physics code is more realistic in 1.3 releases, theres still something very wierd wich is the way how cliff edges capture ship's movement ability even though the ship is like 150 meters above any cliff edge. Same thing was in 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2, but in 1.3 it is more dominating.

The Scion Scout is too fast now, you can jump really high and far using hills with it.


Can you tell exactly how the new blink works?

Cool.  Feedback.  :-)

Didn't know they needed to turn faster.  I can do that. 

I can make them stay in the air longer too.  I'll bump it up 10% for now.

I'm focusing mainly on the Scouts now as they are the most used.

Not sure what you mean about the terrain collision thing.

I know that buildings tend to pop units up and that isn't right.  Probably associated with the cliff thing.  Might have the isTerrain seeting on in them.

Blink acts like 1.2 Blink in Assault morph.  That is, it uses ammo and has a pretty long range.   In Combat morph, it  only has a 40m range. uses local ammo, and recharges.  That is so people don't use Blink to unbalance gameplay.  Youi can Blink in, then morph to Combat (takes a few seconds), fight or do damage, then morph to Assault and move out.  Basically, you can't just come and go like the wind and Blink around your opponents in a dogfight.

Looks like I copied the wrong Blinks in there.  :oops:  Sorry, fixing that now.

Space, do you mean turning while moving or spinning in place or both?

Here's an update.

DELETE the previous RD-Tweaks before installing.

Please post feedback please!

Physics:

Increased turning rate on DM Scout/Drone.

Removed the bump sound on Scout/Drone.

Made Scout/Drone more resistant to terrain/vehicle collisions.

Other:

Changed pilot sound when landing (grunt instead of bump)

Gave DM Drone same AI as Scout (more intelligent/aggressive)

Consistent naming/spelling in MPVehicles list.  (Thunderbolt instead of Thunder Bolt, etc.)

http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001263.zip

RD, SLOW DOWN with the updates! Remember what we told you in beta.

LOL...

BUT...IT'S...SO...HARD...TO...WAIT!!!!

:evil:

-Av-

I have to act on the feedback. Plus, if I don't, things get stale and I want to keep things fresh and the interest up.

Also, a lot of the players have a very short attention span and want a quick turnaround.

Going in to the dentist for my root canal this afternoon, so I wanted to get this in before then.

I'm leaving a DM with the tweaks up while I'm at the dentist.

or at least update the first post with the latest update so we don't have to go searching through the posts to find it :P

ISDF scout is much better now. Terrain collision is removed nearly totally, nose down acceleration is back in business.
It still needs some ability to stay in the air, should be sort of falling resistant. Otherwise nearly all turret killing/dogfighting vet methods are negated or harmed badly.

I wonder why 1.3 needed recoded new physics, cause it was possible to remove hovering and nose down acceleration only by tweaking odfs. It's so clumsy now. Hard to integrate 1.2 physics code back ?

Because tweaked ODFs could be undone, and infinite flying would be right back. That's not an option we wanted.

-- GSH

Well, could that falling down effect be reduced ?

yah, increase reverse thrust or make an "aircraft" class unit :)

Quoteyah, increase reverse thrust

That might give a little more time in the air, but it harms craft's features in other ways. There is no way to go around the current hover elimination.
BZ1 style physics (ships slowly falled down) would be enough imo. No need for infinite hovering, i agree that the physics would be better that way.

Just some resistance against the gravity pull. Its pretty unrealistic on Pluto and Titan atm :D

1) Scouts are too fast.
2) Reverse speed is too fast.
3) Needs ability to retain some air-maneuverbility, like press 'e' to be able to control your descent - currently you fall like a rock.
4) Scouts need to be a bit lower from the ground.

Otherwise, great. Going in the right direction.

I can probably add some more air time, but they'll never hover.

Was just talking with appel and mase in that DM I had up.  Going to make some more small tweaks to the DM ISDF Scout and Scion Drone and see how that goes. 

Sounds like we're headed in the right direction guys.  :-)   Thanks for testing!


Next will be (if you guys agree):

2. Strat ISDF Scout and Scion Drone.

3. DM Sabre and DM Warrior.

4. Strat Sabre and Warrior

5. Turret and Guardian

6. Mortar Bike and Sentry

7. Missile Scout and Lancer

8. Tug and Hauler

9. Service Truck and Healer

10. Rocket Tank

11. Assault Tank and Titan

12. Walker and Mauler

13. APC and Bomber

Quote from: Red Devil on March 08, 2006, 06:29:34 PM
Next will be (if you guys agree):

2. Strat ISDF Scout and Scion Drone.

3. DM Sabre and DM Warrior.

4. Strat Sabre and Warrior

5. Turret and Guardian

6. Mortar Bike and Sentry

7. Missile Scout and Lancer

8. Tug and Hauler

9. Service Truck and Healer

10. Rocket Tank

11. Assault Tank and Titan

12. Walker and Mauler

13. APC and Bomber

No need to start work on those yet. Finishing the ISDF scout is IMO the very first thing that should be finished. Tweaking the sabre's and other units doesn't require as much effort, beside, if we don't get the ISDF scout *right* tweaking the other units will be a waste of time anyway as nobody will play with those assets :)

That's what I was trying to say, that these pairs of units in this order would be the next pair that we start on after we get the Scouts/Drones right.

Yea.

But I don't understand why you have DM units and Strat units? Aren't they the same?

BZ2 has never had identical units for those.

-- GSH

Personally I'm shocked by how many people think that, the differences (At least one of them) are pretty obvious. That being the lower ammo capacity in the DM ships. The second being that DM ships do not leave scrap behind. There are different physics at work too.

Leaving scrap is something set by the DLL. It's the least of the issues.

-- GSH

Hm.... not the same physics? How are they different? I haven't really felt that in 1.2 at least.

Appel is right, get scouts 1st, then involve more testers to finalize things. Then Play games, not just DMs,  many of the "1.2" tried and  true strategies will already be altered by AI, current changes to weapons(if there are many..I don't know), so you want to see what effect you currently have with 1.3 before making changes based upon 1.2 perceptions. Also, Get that lead target thing done and integrated into the scout fix and tha might be a major major advance. Then look to tweak slowly craft by craft.

Hell, then u need to look at ISDF V Scion issues, I know u know that...But hey....2 cents.



Wierd thought (that of course could never happen)  What if, the origininal 1.2 physics JUST had the auto leveling removed...that woulda sniped flying in and of itself wouldn't it?....Oh well..I guess even the wheel could stand to be reinvented once every few thousand years...

Starting with the DM Scouts/Drones allows us to test them immediately and make different versions and doesn't affect strat.  Once we get them, we can extrapolate them to the strat ones.  Can test the Drone with shields and if they pickup crates while morphed right off the bat too.  SLightly different physics too.

DM ISDF Scout also uses the DM minigun, which has a range of 180m, SP/MP minigun has a range of 105m.


WD, this was my intent all along:

Quote from: Red Devil on March 08, 2006, 06:47:36 PM
That's what I was trying to say, that these pairs of units in this order would be the next pair that we start on after we get the Scouts/Drones right.

Hmm, if leaving the scrap is set by the DLL then why do stock ships leave scrap on DM maps? Ohhh, is it just the list of DM ships that the DLL tells not to leave scrap?

i think the sabre and warrior should be #2 those are my second favorites.  :wink:

I'm quite sure it is not set by dll whether something leaves scrap on death.  Probobly set in ODF.

It's not. I checked all the DM ship ODFs. They all have positive scrapValue settings.

RD, It sounds to me like your setting the physics up for a very small handful of ppl. What happens when the vets you have testing for you now go and tell the others that the physics are "good" or "livable" and the new testers start screaming "These suck...they're still too sluggish (or too fast or w/e)? You NEED a bigger group of testers...and let them beat on the physics for a full day or 2 before updating. It's fine to make changes before that but don't release them soon as your done. Use the extra time to make sure you don't have any dups or haven't forgotten anything.

I say go to all the clan sites and beat the drum. Tell them if they don't participate now that they should hold their tongues later.

I disagree BZZERKER.

I want to have a working *1.2 patch* for 1.3 before we start advertising a uncomplete and still buggish physics. So when we're complete, we should release a working version, and ask people to play. Getting too many people involved will only slow this process, and we'll probably receive conflicting opinions.

And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be.  :mrgreen:

Quote from: appel on March 09, 2006, 11:45:05 AM
I disagree BZZERKER.

I want to have a working *1.2 patch* for 1.3 before we start advertising a uncomplete and still buggish physics. So when we're complete, we should release a working version, and ask people to play. Getting too many people involved will only slow this process, and we'll probably receive conflicting opinions.

And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be.  :mrgreen:

Not to sound disrespectful.....BUT,

Maybe you should stop sniffing yourself. Anytime 1 person decides that they can speak for many without their permission, it's time to step back and re-evaluate.

Quote from: appel on March 09, 2006, 11:45:05 AM
I disagree BZZERKER.

I want to have a working *1.2 patch* for 1.3 before we start advertising a uncomplete and still buggish physics. So when we're complete, we should release a working version, and ask people to play. Getting too many people involved will only slow this process, and we'll probably receive conflicting opinions.

And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be.  :mrgreen:

I agree, you can often achieve more with a handful of people who know what they are doing rather than with a large amount of people who all want different things . The point is to remain focused and have a clear series of goals, having too many people involved  can often muddy the water so to speak. ZST would be a good example of how to make a mod like this, aslong as you have a good handle on what makes the game tick for the majority of players the quality of your work should speak for itself.

Quote from: BZZERKER on March 09, 2006, 11:54:30 AM

Quote from: appel on March 09, 2006, 11:45:05 AM
I disagree BZZERKER.

I want to have a working *1.2 patch* for 1.3 before we start advertising a uncomplete and still buggish physics. So when we're complete, we should release a working version, and ask people to play. Getting too many people involved will only slow this process, and we'll probably receive conflicting opinions.

And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be.  :mrgreen:

Not to sound disrespectful.....BUT,

Maybe you should stop sniffing yourself. Anytime 1 person decides that they can speak for many without their permission, it's time to step back and re-evaluate.

It's done all the time. And you wouldn't get anywhere without it. It's like making a new soda flavor, only a handful of people make a new flavor, and if they like it, they'll get a bigger test group, if they all like it, they'll try to market it in limited places, if it sells well, they'll market it big time.
Coming out with a flavor that's not ready, or not everybody like, will surely flop the marketing of it and not sell anything :)

Besides, I use a good aftershave, it smells very nice.

"And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be."


Don't let  him get big headed...but  Appel is most likely right about this, the Bac guys are one of the longest playing clans of BZ 2 MP and Appel fights right in w/ that solid MP group,  get him genrerally happ and I'd say you have a very good working model. In the wlong run for more weapon and balance tweaking i agree that should be done w/ a bigger group...and I trust it will be....cause if Appel is happy w/ the physics, he goes along way to bringning in a substantial part of the MP strat players to fine tune balance.

OK, points taken.

I would feel a lot better if PF and DF were in on the "taste testing" as well. It would give a bit more credit to the work as well I think.

Quote from: BZ FeebleEffort on March 09, 2006, 12:19:46 PM
"And I believe that if I'm happy with the end result, then I'm pretty sure the majority will also be."


Don't let  him get big headed...

Hence my comment. ;) He seems awful high on himself.

spAce and appel can easily most of the 1.2ers who whould give 1.3 a shot.  BBR can't play as much..I think and DF isn't a great representation of most of the vets, easily smarter than most hasn't played recently.

Good debate!  Sounds like we're on the right track then.  And yes, it would be good to have PF and DF participate.  Feels like I'm a mechanic on a race car team. :-)

So here's the rough plan:

1. I'll strip out the units from the download that aren't being worked on/haven't been worked on in order to increase/maintain focus and give us a picture of our progress.

2. We get a good solid physics base by working on one pair at a time, starting our way up the hovercraft tech tree in pairs, then move up the tracked vehicles tech tree in pairs, then the walkers, and then the air vehicles (Bomber, APC, Archer).

3. Fine tune the physics once all units are close.

4. Repeat process with balancing.

5. Tweak other problems such as building clipping.


Be good to test the Thunderbolt/Drone on a slow server to see how much they warp.


Question: Will Mod physics and balance have to be adjusted once we finish with the stock physics/balance?

That depends on what is included in the pak, if your doing what i am, which is having nothing stock whatsoever, then there shouldnt be any problems as the stock ships and files will be sorted out when reinstalled not touching the mod

Any new gameprefs can go into the mods addon folder which is what i do but some ships odfs may need a small modification, but it shouldnt be anything hard. And the patch13.pak is added in mods (should be) so taht any changes will take effect in the mod. But thats the nutshell, im not even going to pretend i know about physics etc.

If anyone just read what raven said, forget it.  If you haven't read it, then don't read it.  Isn't useful at all and not on topic.

As for non hover units their physics probablly won't need to be tweaked, maybe mass and sticking to the ground for treaded units.  Mass is utterly simple to set back to the exact 1.2 values, I can provide these if you want them red.  To reduce ground collision without increasing the hoveraltitude I found that:
[CraftClass]
GROUND_ELASTICITY = -0.5 // [0.03125]
Worked relatively well, with some oddities.  It removed the collision with buildings, and you couldn't hit something from straight on.  The variable adjusts how much energy from the collision with the ground is transfered back into the ship, one being 100% and so on.  Values near or above one make the ship fly into the air, high negative values having extremely odd effects and zero to low negative values reducing the collision the most.

Not too sure how it works for others, appel tried it and noticed no difference, but that scout was also lowered which could have an effect.

Also, if you could put all the hud tweaks into a folder/subfolder I can easily delete it would be helpful.  Playing with them at min res means over half the screen is cluttered, real PITA to sort everything out and delete the shell tweaks.  Not saying they are bad, just that  they don't work at lower resolutions, as you should know.  You could try using the different resolution feature too, its in the code below.

- Made various cfg files more resolution-independent. Basically, for a
file like "bzshell.cfg", it'll look first for a file
"bzshell_640x480.cfg" first, and if that's present, use it. The 640,
480 are based on the current resolutions. As there's a lot of
resolutions, there'll be a lot of duplications. Sorry. The files
affected by this change are: "bzshell.cfg", "bzshell_editor.cfg",
"bzgame_base.cfg", "bzgame_command.cfg", "bzgame_factory.cfg",
"bzgame_group.cfg", "bzgame_moves.cfg", "bzgame_satellite.cfg",
"bzgame_scrap.cfg", "bzgame_weapon.cfg", "bzgame_team.cfg",
"bzgame_init.cfg", "bzgame_keys.cfg", "bzgame_stats.cfg" Mostly
untested, but should work. [NM]

They are already in a separate folder.  Just delete it. I just threw that in there to get some quick feedback on how people like it so far is all and so we could see the Ping/Lag values better for now.  I'll make ones for different resolutions when we get to item 5 unless you or someone else wants to do them now.

The bounce thing seems to be fixed to people's liking so far.  You used negative values?  Lol, you're an out-of-the-boxer like me.  Careful though. Remember how me using negative values triggered AV's on the tracked vehicles before GSH clamped them?   :wink:

"Question: Will Mod physics and balance have to be adjusted once we finish with the stock physics/balance?"


Leave Modders to tweak on their own...you have a big enough task just getting stock into the realm of near universal acceptance.

I know, just wondering if they will have to tweak their physics after we tweak these is all.

They could, but hopefully the tweaks are somewhat constant throughout, so its jsut multiplying.

The negative values don't cause this to crash, just dont make it much higher (well, lower) than -.5 or you will get a certain game breaking odd result which I have never seen in anything else.

I'm using all positive values, not negative values, and it works well.

2 days and no update  :?

Sorry dude.  Been trying to get it so it doesn't drop so quickly.  Trying Mass and other settings without much success; just makes them more bouncy.  I'm adding in all the new ODF option entries now, set to defaults.  That way, I can just copy them from one ODF to the next as they're worked on.  Should have something out soon.

Whoops....heh *nervouse laugh* i thought you meant...never mind! :oops:

Here's an update:

DELETE old RD-Tweaks folder.  Reorganized things.

I removed all the vehicles except the ones we're working on.

Added a bunch of the new ODF entries (default entries) to make it easier for me, etc. Shouldn't affect things much.

Slowed down the Thunderbolt/Drone and made them not climb so easily (I think).

Cleaned up some duplicate entries, etc.

Gotta go to the movies now.  Let me know what needs work.

http://www.spike.http.co.il/uploads/up/A001274.zip

Make a mute button so u dont have to do it in the console

You don't have to do it in console..

Put it this way: it's you who's going to be muted.

I'm leaving a Titan DM map up.

Why did you include just the DM-Scouts?  I could understand just scouts, but why not include the default ones?
For bounciness object elasticity should be fine as stock, and try ground elasticity at -0.5.
And for mass being at .5, mass is ~4000 in stock 1.3 and 1500 in 1.2.  If you want to adjust the masses so they are the same as 1.2 let me know, most of the busywork in that is done.

All the extra entries are relatively pointless and can only cause problems, even if they help you edit the files comment them out untill you change them so no minor mistakes are made in final ect.

Spawn, you better not be trying to undercut what I'm doing again.  We've got an agreed-upon process here and if you and APC's start that hoot up again, we're going to have problems.

I already posted about the units.

I already told you about negative numbers.

I was playing with the Mass settings and left it in there because I had to rush to get to the movies.

 :-o

How did I get involved in this already? I haven't even said anything.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 11, 2006, 06:00:18 AM
Spawn, you better not be trying to undercut what I'm doing again.  We've got an agreed-upon process here and if you and APC's start that hoot up again, we're going to have problems.

Christ man, calm down, honestly.  If I was teting to undercut you I could easily post a link to another set of assets and confuse everyone.

QuoteI already posted about the units.

Reasonable, but strat ones are more important then dm.

QuoteI already told you about negative numbers.

And I told you that it won't crash with low values, and besides taht, it was jsut a suggestion seeing how you said you were having trouble removing the bounciness, so I told you what I have done in testing.

QuoteI was playing with the Mass settings and left it in there because I had to rush to get to the movies.

Again, reasonable, but just making sure that you don't accidentally leave something in again.

QuoteAnd I told you that it won't crash with low values, and besides taht, it was jsut a suggestion seeing how you said you were having trouble removing the bounciness, so I told you what I have done in testing.

Change.log

Quote
"- TrackedVehicleClass::SPRING_FACTOR and TrackedVehicleClass::DAMPING_FACTOR
now have minimum values of 0.01 . Negative values caused problems
immediately. Most "don't do that, then" things will probably be left in,
as an encouragement to modders to not push things too far. [NM]

The ground ellasticity has been throughly tested at negative values, -0.5 is ok, going too negative (AKA -5) caused some problems, but nothing remotely like it appeared at lower values.

I've tested the new scout, and here are my points:

- Forward speed seems to feel just about right now.
- Reverse speed is still a tiny bit faster than in 1.2, decrease it by like 5% I think.
- The ground still bounces back to you. If you fall straight down from some height then the scout will bounce like a ball (although no bouncing sound can be heard). In 1.2 you just land straight.
- You need to be able to control yourself while flying, *hover* if I must say, for a limited time to control your flying, such as reversing or going to the sides. I'm not talking about static hovering, but rather being able to thrust yourself in the air, rather than falling down like a rock without being able to control your descent. This is I think the most crucial part that the scout needs to be able to do.


If this ^ can be implemented then I think we have a very good scout ready to test.

Quote from: appel on March 11, 2006, 02:36:12 PM

- You need to be able to control yourself while flying, *hover* if I must say, for a limited time to control your flying, such as reversing or going to the sides. I'm not talking about static hovering, but rather being able to thrust yourself in the air, rather than falling down like a rock without being able to control your descent. This is I think the most crucial part that the scout needs to be able to do.

I don't think we can do anything about that. I believe the reverse and possibly strafe keys are deactivated whenever you go high enough to hear the wind, or as I prefer to call it, that godawful sound that is annoying as hell.

Control in the air is limited because it was how hovering was removed, this existed in 1.2, but the dropoff wasn't anywhere nearly as extreme and then allowed hovering to happen.  Could use the neg hover altitude trick, but that would fail.  Not sure if he reduced jump like the others though, but thats never been too great.

...you called?  :-P

'bout time you showed up you slacker. :P

ehm lets just say I had(/ve) my hands full  :-D

Quote from: APCs r evil on March 11, 2006, 03:57:41 PMthat godawful sound that is annoying as hell.

I hear ya. It's waay too loud. HyperSFX, Very Cool

whats the newest version? and i think one of ur cfg files made my 1.3 AV ...i dunno ill figure out what does it later

 I'll post something in a few days.  BZZ told me to slow down, so I am.  Playing BF2 with the new 1.21 patch in the meantime.

Quote from: Red Devil on March 14, 2006, 01:09:34 PM
I'll post something in a few days.  BZZ told me to slow down, so I am.  Playing BF2 with the new 1.21 patch in the meantime.

god never heard any one making 21 patches just for 1 patch  :-P game must be buggy

people name patches wierd things, often skipping dozens of numbers...

LOL. Yep. Sometimes it confused me. (but hey, that isn't hard to do. :D )

It's not incremental.  Numbers are assigned according to amount of code modified.  Major changes get whole numbers increased, moderate ones increase by tenths, minor ones by hundredths.  There's been about 4-5 patches for BF2 so far.

when BF2 released 1.2 they had found some bugs, they decided to go ahead and fix them, so that created a patch 1.21

RD, may I suggest that you number your releases. This way ppl have a better idea what version is being tested and are better able to compare versions. A simple numbering system (such as x.xx) on your RD-tweaks folder name should be sufficient.

Quote from: .:.HMR.:.squirrel-Cmd on March 14, 2006, 06:30:42 PM
when BF2 released 1.2 they had found some bugs, they decided to go ahead and fix them, so that created a patch 1.21

thats so confusing  :|

man red_Devil put thumper back on but put it in the armory

You have too much fun with it.  I'll add it back in towards the end and it will be expensive in scrap, tech, and time, plus it will be weaker.

Quote from: Red Devil link=topic=5628.msg8*stupid*#msg8*stupid* date=1142454588
You have too much fun with it.  I'll add it back in towards the end and it will be expensive in scrap, tech, and time, plus it will be weaker.

any way making stronger in insant action so i can make a walker movie with it  :mrgreen: god that  was soo funny

Any chance of leaving out thumper and ANY OTHER
items not DIRECTLY related to letting people help
you test and tweak hovercraft physics?

Keep It Simple Red Devil.

Here's a great idea ;
While you are releasing tweak packs for testing,
also release FUN packs to include your thumpers and
other anthropomorphic characters.
But do them in a different thread please.

I'm trying to help.

I have a better idea... 

Hey RD, look over here...

Give me the Thumper buddy...  c'mon, let it go...  hand it over and nobody gets hurt...

That's it...  relax and give old 'Avatar that nasty Thumper...

I'll hang on to it until the rest of these guys are ready for it... 

:roll:

-Av-

:lol:

"Keep It Simple Red Devil."


I agree....let me put it this way RD...You are doing the Lords work...Your efforts in working to fix physics(admittedly permissable because nathan made physics tweakable via ODFs) Now gives 1.3 a viable chance at much more widespread acceptance. Keep working w/ Appel/PF and others to get the physics as good as they can be....

Integrate the Visual lag fix and then Rinse and repeat, for other ships and bingo....you are getting 1.3 downright better.

Whatever other fixes continue are just a bonus, but IF Physics and the Visual lag issue are reolved, you can then bring in more widespread testing for weapon issues.

I know...I know...you gotta plan....Just like the Cylons...

The visual lag thing is easily fixable, jsut need to play with gameprefs, look at the thread I posted.

Ahem...

If you guys had bothered to read my posts and download the latest tweaks and looked at them before posting, you guys would have seen that I had already removed the Thumper and other hover units and assets.

After watching STG go bonkers with Thumper, I realized I made the same mistake I made before, thinking that people were like me and capable of testing multiple things at once.  They are, but they get easily distracted.  I can work on effects, units, models, weapons, physics, etc., and separate and test them all at the same time, but others have problems with that.

...and keep shiny objects away from Spawn or he'll never do any work. Then again, keep APC's away from the shiny objects too... :roll:

FAR to late for that bzzerker :-P

 Just to let you guys know, the devs are working on an update that have improved physics, so I'm holding off posting any more tweaks.  Was tooling around in a Scout yesterday and it was really nice and smooth - without the ODF tweaks.  :-)

The cost of your smooth scout was my broken Scavs...  :(

Seriously, though, RD's right in that any further ODF experimentation should be held until Ken finishes whatever he's doing. 

I noticed the same thing, it feels a LOT smoother now.  If we could get a little more control while in the air it'd feel JUST like BZ1.  :)

-Av-

Go get the new build, duder.

"the devs are working on an update that have improved physics"


And the Visual targeting fix?

First things first.  All things are connected.  Gosh, I'm starting to sound like Master Po.  "Grasshoppa!  Again!  Again!"

Quote from: Avatar on March 16, 2006, 11:24:48 AM
The cost of your smooth scout was my broken Scavs...  :(

I fixed the ScavengerH problem.  When I added support for AssaultHover, I changed HoverCraft to use strafe-to-steer for class_id CLASS_ID_VEHICLE (normally used by tracked and walker types).  However, ScavengerH and ConstructionRig both used that type even when overriding it with hover physics.  I set those types to class_id CLASS_ID_CRAFT when using hover physics, and that should make them work again.

Quote
Seriously, though, RD's right in that any further ODF experimentation should be held until Ken finishes whatever he's doing. 

Thing is, I'm not sure what I did.  :D

Quote
I noticed the same thing, it feels a LOT smoother now.  If we could get a little more control while in the air it'd feel JUST like BZ1.  :)

:)

I still dont understand why not take someone from the vet community, who knows what he's doing to help beta test and suggest & test in private

Are you volunteering?    :-D

Ken, I don't know what happened either.  I was backing halfway up the hill behind the CCA Recycler in "Three Beacons" when I realized how smooth it felt.  Something is different but it's not really in your face...

Whatever it is I like it... 

And thanks for fixing 'my' Scavs, the whole BZC mod depends on them. 
:)

-Av-

as long as its in the community's best intrest I dont mind.

though I must say I think appel will fit more for this job as he always shows more motivation to fix things than I, he's also more imaginitve and probably even more helpful than me.

The thing I notice about the Scouts/hovercraft is that they have less drag now.

PF, I think another release will be coming soon.  Mostly compiler switches and technical things like that going on now.

"Vets" had a chance to participate in the past. They blew it.

-- GSH

Let's not dig up the past...  please.

Vets can participate now by trying the beta and giving their feedback here, instead of sticking to their own boards badmouthing the beta as not having vets participating...  this IS the time for them to participate, although they need to do it in a dispassionate and non-personal way.

And do it here.

Not there.

Here.

-Av-

Space is on the beta team, don't know if he realizes it though. :-P

[looks down and scuffs the dirt with his foot]

I'm a...vet.  Been playing BZ since before BZ first came out.

Well you meet the time requirement. What about the skill requirement though?  :wink:

lol...im probably like RD?

:P

Ditto. :)

Quote"Vets" had a chance to participate in the past. They blew it.

-- GSH

"Devs" had a chance to come up with something playable in the past. they blew it.


-- PF



?

I could probably write about 100 more pages but that should suffice

Do we really have to go there PF?

GSH is ignorant by choice, you cannot help him.


Anyway, what I think about the scout now is:

- Might be going a tiny bit too slow forward.
also most important:
- The ground *catches* you, which can be annoying. Don't know how I can explain this, but this is the same thing I said in 1.3pb1. When climbing hills, going fast forward, the ground seems to *catch* your ship and try to adjust you. (http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/index.php/topic,1639.0.html)
- There is still ground-bouncing :(
- No reverse-throttle so you can control your descent.

I'm not sure if those things can be fixed, as you guys said it's not possible to put hovering back in... but that's not what I'm asking for. It seems like GSH really messed it up so no compromise can be reached with this new scout.

Anyway, if not any of those 3 last things I mentioned can be fixed, I'm pretty sure the days of me testing this are over. Which is unfortunate, since I was hoping those things could be adjusted and weren't hard-coded into the engine.

Quote"Vets" had a chance to participate in the past. They blew it.-- GSH

Quote from: PhoeniX-FlamE"Devs" had a chance to come up with something playable in the past. they blew it.-- PF

This is what I was talking about.  Let me explain where PF is missing the point, along with many other 'Vets'.

The simple version is that the inital Beta Team "Vets" were part of a BETA process.  A BETA process is not about instantly making a broken product fun.  There are many non-fun, non-playable parts that come between the broken and final products. There have been many times during the process that the BETA was totally unplayable for a period.  The original Beta Team 'Vets' couldn't handle the early, non-fun stages any more than the remaining Beta Team 'Modders' can handle (successfully in the eyes of the Vets) the final 'make it fun' parts.

We don't need more personality crap, more flames, more whining or more "GSH sucks" comments.

We need to recognize that NOW is the time the Vets should have been waiting for, when the bugs are squashed and the physics and playability are the focus.

C'mon kids, pull out some class, swallow your egos and step up to the plate to finish this baby...

appel, VERY nice report.  Thank you, it's exactly what's needed.

-Av-

Yes, the devs are basically re-writing large portions of half a billion lines of BZ2 bit by bit (heh) and it's all inter-related, so it's like trying to untangle spaghetti.  To expect them to basically wave a wand and make it all the way we want it when we want it is unrealisitc at best. 

I look at it this way: Nathan and Ken are building a bigger and better house for us to live in.  If you criticize them and insult them, of course they're going to throw it right back in your face and tell you to piss off.  I would do the same thing and so would you if it were you.

If people want to bite the hand that feeds them then they should just not participate.  If they want to help, then they should leave their attitudes at the door.

Okay now, group hug everybody.

I didnt miss no point Av.

QuoteA BETA process is not about instantly making a broken product fun.

I'm well aware of that, and let me just add that when 1.3 was during its first build vets had no place in the beta team - note what I'm saying - I aint saying vets werent there - vets werent needed - so surely they'll get bored!
the devs should've accepted vets opnion when the opnion was needed - not call on them when they can preaty much do nothnig to help.

QuoteNathan and Ken are building a bigger and better house for us to live in.  If you criticize them and insult them, of course they're going to throw it right back in your face and tell you to piss off.

if they' throw away the furniture you like , of course you're goung to criticize and inslut them, espicely when they give you a piss-off attitude while thrownig you stuff out

QuoteDo we really have to go there PF?

are you sure you're directing the question to the right person?
when the attitude on the other fence hasnt changed why should all of the sudden out of the blue I should change mine and be walked on?


I had every wish to help and finish this project about 2 weeks ago, I realy did, but after reading GSH comment its simlpy gone in a heart-bit

your request is for me to be a rug and get walked on, but sorry, I wont be walked on, espicely not twice.




as its Red Devil's project to fix 1.3 and making it for the better off the community I will however help when & if I can (if its wanted still?) but I wont do it on this board, not for 1.3s sake and without a doubt not for GSH

*sigh*

:|

-Av-

Well PF, let me ask you this...Do you bite every baited hook you see?

The vets that were beta left on their own kicking and screaming because they lost their precious nosedown (how short sighted of them), now their back saying "we weren't part of the process".....I have one thing left to say on this topic and that is MAKE UP YOUR BLOODY FRAKKIN MINDS!

PF, all he said was that they had a chance to work on the private beta team in the past and blew it.  That's not an insult or personal attack and is not a  reason to be upset.

This is how things escalate and get ugly.

If you would like to help by giving constructive feedback on the physics and balance, it would be appreciated.

If the Vets still want to help then please start helping by testing the physics\balance tweaks & helping to create a vet recycler variant that is extremly close to the 1.2 physics\balance.  Now is not the time to yell & scream about the physics however now is the time start helping by being constructive with providing some feedback on the preliminary physics\balance tweaks.

There ARE vets in the 1.3 beta team.

And yet 1.3pb2 was released 'broken'

Testing was never allowed to produce
results which helped online strat performance.

There is no right answer to any of the questions, but each side is demanding that their's is right with no exceptions.

As for vets on the 1.3 team, there is me, spAce, APC (not a classic vet but something) and possibly scout if he can be summoned.  That's it, more or less no true vet influence, not that any would really be taken, too much was said.  All the regulars here hate any vets, no matter how levelheaded or what is trying to be accomplished, and all the new players that join this board and the 1.3 community latch on and attack anyone with differing ideas without reason or ability.  I feel unwelcome here regularly, like everyone hates me for trying to help, not by everyone but by certain people completely.  I think the only reason I got on the 1.3 team is to help test DC, though I hope more good has occurred from me being here than just that.  The vets hate 1.3 because GSH has developed a hate towards all of them by the actions of certain assholes, and the vets who tried to help but were feircely attacked simply because they defended their friends, even if the friends were wrong.  Some have oftered to help again, GSH has refused such ofters, it is fully his right to, but it would be better for all to leave their pride and what has happened in the past behind, even if they should not have to.

It would be nice, but will never happen, the only reason it would happen is if everyone in this small community cared about each other, which obviously isn't the case.

Personally, the only seperation there *should* be in a community like this, are those you prefer ISDF, and those who prefer Scion.  The term "Vet" is a joke and only serves to further splinter the community.

It can splinter a community, only when viewed as a poor thing like it is here, generally it refers to someone who has played enough to become good at a game or knows whatthey are doing, not like it has been made here.  Vet is only a "joke" to you becasue you made it that way.

Quote from: Spawn on March 17, 2006, 05:06:44 PMAPC (not a classic vet but something)

I think that is the only reason why I don't feel unwelcome here as well.

I disagree.

"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it. 

I'm too argue to be drunking like this...

Please, drop the 'tudes, swallow some pride, leave GSH alone and for crying out loud state your PHYSICS opinion in a clear and polite manner HERE, on the beta boards.  That's all that's needed now.  Not more flames or attitudes...

Gonna have to tape Dr Who, I guess....

-Av-

Yes, a lot of us have been with BZ1 and BZ2 and even the arcade game before some people discovered BZ and started calling themselves vets.  I think a better term would be "Stratters".

This reminds me of the relationship that race car drivers and mechanics and owners have, each having animosity towards the others.

I think it's a good idea and good for the BZ2 and the community at large that the drivers and mechanics and the owners keep a safe distance.

I played Battlezone on the Atari, played on the giant console in stores a few times when I was young, got BZ1 within a month of it coming out, yet I don't consider myself a 'vet', because near every 'vet' I've met tends to be some kind of 'rabid, 14-year old kid', not all, but the great majority, and that does not look well upon the whole.

Not recommending any action to anyone here Avatar, because even if I did it would be a waste of time.  Everyone hates each other and the few that are reasonable enough to care are completely alienated.

For the physics, I haven't noticed and real difference between 1.2 and 1.3 for a while, don't care what the settings are or what can be done, just want to play.  In general devs and users are seperate, the devs don't have time to use the program like the users do, and the users who actually care are easily overwritten by some assholes who don't.  In bz2 this is relatively similar, but many modders also play, though some don't.  Most of the 1.3 beta team is happy enough playing something else and not looking back, some are too busy with work to play, getting a simple 1v1 up is hard enough, any real "strat" is nearly impossible, nobody wants to play.

Quote from: OvermindDL1 on March 17, 2006, 05:34:17 PM
Personally, the only seperation there *should* be in a community like this, are those you prefer ISDF, and those who prefer Scion.  The term "Vet" is a joke and only serves to further splinter the community.

Quote
"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

The word "vet" is something that most of the players out there recognize, and when they see games labeled as "vet" games they learn to stay away if they can't cope with the game pace... otherwise they learn the hard way, getting kicked and all that stuff. The fact is, if nobody knows you then you most likely aren't any good. That's the only *system* we "vets" have to get a decent balanced team strategy game, is to play only with people everyone know, can vouch for and know their skill-level of.

And don't tell me this is bad because then newer players won't be able to get as good if they can't play with us. There are always new players in vet games, but they're willing to learn and listen. Most of the "noobs" out there don't want to read chat, don't want to listen, they think that killing others is bad and the whole game everyone should be friends and killing scavs is a taboo. I'm not wasting my evenings on crap like that, sorry. I'd rather play with someone who's at my skill-level.

As for that seperation you mention, well, it's already here and it's been here for a long time. I get kicked out of noob games because I do "too good", and noobs get kicked out of vet games because they simply wouldn't know the enemy even if it was shooting at him. And scion gets played by us vets, we're not only doing ISDF...although scion gets played a lot less than isdf I admit.

And no, we're not *evil*. We're simply at another plain, be a higher or lower, or parellel...who cares.


As for vets being a part of the "beta team", whatever that means, I can only say one name - TimeVirus. I believe he quit it because his arguments were not listened to? That guy has more development time for BZ2 under his belt than anyone in here, and still he wasn't listened to. That's like getting Dr. Phil to give you advice in person, and you tell him to piss off.


As for GSH, he should really try try to find some balance or all his hard work is worthless, it's a sacrifice...yea, but... "Deal with it."

TV is still on the beta, but moderately dead to bz2, or at least these boards.

seperation of skilled players from the noobs exsist in *every* game, in bz2 its just more critical as EVERY player can change the outcome of the game

if you're playing with 12 more players on your team who cares if one of them sucks?


as Spawn said theres a hate here towards vets, its not realy a secret


the vets that left the beta BZZ left because they werent listened to, if I'm not mistaken DF left ater GSH put in being hit for staying up in air, no?

QuoteIf the Vets still want to help then please start helping by testing the physics\balance tweaks & helping to create a vet recycler variant that is extremly close to the 1.2 physics\balance.  Now is not the time to yell & scream about the physics however now is the time start helping by being constructive with providing some feedback on the preliminary physics\balance tweaks.

why?
do we have a say now? accordnig to you guys, yes, according to the devs - nope, vice versa even - for some reason I feel that if I would comment on how to improve physics / how it can be done the devs will find another way to kill it
I'm dead serious here

on PB1 for example, when we found a way to bring hover back all we got was a player getting banned, and even worse physics
while you guys are speaking for 1.3 and saying one thing, the devs (GSH) shows a complete diffrent attitude
you're telling us to post feedback, and then GSH comes and shows he doesnt give a *Ammo* and how much he hates us


why should I help 1.3 when all I get from the devs is a "*Ammo*-you" attitude?

Well, GSH is a self-eccentric tard :) And I laugh at him, and pity him, for taking 4 years to do 1.3, with these results.

I'm willing to give my opinion about ships physics as long as someone is trying to get the good ol' 1.2 feeling back in (applause to them) - Despite all the cra* that's going on in this thread right now.

Quote from: appel on March 17, 2006, 09:07:56 PM

Quote
"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

Not at all.  Don't mistake "Vets" as used here for any other meaning used for Vets anywhere else.  It took on a meaning all it's own here.   It was all about attitude as far as the Beta test goes.  Some players insisted on addressing balance issues far too early in the beta.  Look at RD right now.  All the work he's put into the actual subject of this thread, the physics, just got blown out of the water by Ken coming back to the Beta and adjusting the engine.  RD can now toss everything he's done and go back to waiting to see how it all turns out...  Like Slaor said, "it's no fun developing to a moving target".

Betas are work.  They're not supposed to be fun.  If you want fun you wait until the finished product comes out.

The strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.  Most games start out at one level, and as soon as players achieve Vet level you'll see advanced mods come out to give them more of a challenge.  BZ2 is the only game I've seen where there's such a feeling of ownership by the Vet community.

I like that feeling, but the Vets need to realize everyone who loves this game has it, not just them...

-Av-

MY GAME! MINE!  MINEMINEMINE!  :)

Quote from: Avatar on March 18, 2006, 05:48:58 AM

Quote from: appel on March 17, 2006, 09:07:56 PM

Quote
"Vets" became "Vets" when some of them described themselves as the only players who know what BZ is.  They declared everyone else's opionions as irrelevant.

It was a matter of the disrespect they showed to their fellow players and the very people trying to fix the game.  That's what started it.

That's ridicilous.

Not at all.  Don't mistake "Vets" as used here for any other meaning used for Vets anywhere else.  It took on a meaning all it's own here.   It was all about attitude as far as the Beta test goes.  Some players insisted on addressing balance issues far too early in the beta.  Look at RD right now.  All the work he's put into the actual subject of this thread, the physics, just got blown out of the water by Ken coming back to the Beta and adjusting the engine.  RD can now toss everything he's done and go back to waiting to see how it all turns out...  Like Slaor said, "it's no fun developing to a moving target".

Betas are work.  They're not supposed to be fun.  If you want fun you wait until the finished product comes out.

The strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.  Most games start out at one level, and as soon as players achieve Vet level you'll see advanced mods come out to give them more of a challenge.  BZ2 is the only game I've seen where there's such a feeling of ownership by the Vet community.

I like that feeling, but the Vets need to realize everyone who loves this game has it, not just them...

-Av-

MY GAME! MINE!  MINEMINEMINE!  :)

Don't go stupid. What do you think we're trying to do in this thread? We're TRYING to get the game working like it did in 1.2, WITHOUT much luck. The 1.3 developers ignored our opinions, disliked us for expressing our opinions, and hard-coded it in the engine so we simply COULDN'T get the gameplay we're looking for.
I wouldn't care less how 1.3 is as default, I'm only interested in getting it working with a "1.2 rec variant". But appearently it's not enough to please the newbies, you have to piss off the vets too by making it impossible for us to do that.

A moving-target is when the requirements constantly change. Our only *requirement* has been known from the beginning, it is for the gameplay, physics and other stuff, to be more like 1.2. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Besides, I think the most fun part of making a software, game or whatever, is for people actually USING IT.

QuoteThe strange thing is there's a HUGE difference in skill level between Vets and Newbs in pretty much any modern game.  Most communities recognize that balancing a game for Vets is to kill it, as incoming Newbs will become frustrated instantly and take off.  Without newbs a game withers and dies.

You're talking about games like Battlefield, where there are maybe 30 players on a server, many of them very experienced, and some beginners. Of course the newbies are gonna die a lot, and whine.
But for BZ2 this doesn't apply since you don't have the vets and the newbies playing together. So what is there to whine about if you're always playing with people at the same skill level?


You guys have to stop thinking of BZ2 like a popular new game, it's OLD and it can only survive by retaining to those who already play it. Displease them and you've already doomed it.

*sigh*

This IS a moving target.  BETA means it's a moving target.  OK, you don't like 'target' because you think the target is 1.2 physics, when in fact the 'target' is the game engine.  A BETA revolves around and focuses on the engine, especially in the beginning.  GSH has done wonders with the engine despite personal attacks and vendettas against him.  All of the important work was under the hood and until that work is done you can't do a damn thing with physics and gameplay and be sure all your work won't go right out the window with one little change somewhere else.  Ken just proved that by completely breaking my mod with one little change he made, which he luckily could fix or I'd have been out months of work.

Anyway...

It should never have become personal.  You can argue that GSH made it that way but when it all comes down to it it's his time and effort, and the 1.2 players have 1.2 forever and ever and ever... Anyone who feels SO put out by 1.3 or GSH that they can't stand it is welcome to go play 1.2 and completely ignore the Beta, but instead they come here and flame, go to other boards and flame, hang around online and flame, attack the guy that's doing the work...

Sad.  Very sad.

Like I said, the only thing that's needed is for the exact kind of reports you're giving.  If Ken hangs in there we don't even need to play with ODF's, he can change the engine specs to the point where it's very much like 1.2 as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering.

-Av-

Quote from: Avatar on March 18, 2006, 06:41:47 AM
This IS a moving target.  BETA means it's a moving target. 

I've studied software engineering, and a moving target is a constant change in basic requirements throughout the software lifecycle. Beta has no special meaning.

Quote from: Avatar on March 18, 2006, 06:41:47 AM
GSH has done wonders with the engine despite personal attacks and vendettas against him.
It should never have become personal.  You can argue that GSH made it that way but when it all comes down to it it's his time and effort, and the 1.2 players have 1.2 forever and ever and ever... Anyone who feels SO put out by 1.3 or GSH that they can't stand it is welcome to go play 1.2 and completely ignore the Beta, but instead they come here and flame, go to other boards and flame, hang around online and flame, attack the guy that's doing the work...
Sad.  Very sad.

Well, yes, GSH made it personal. Some people just are like that, unable to turn negative feedback into positive constructive feedback.

As for playing 1.2, we are doing it already. The bulk of the players are ignoring 1.3 completely. Your only hope to get them into 1.3 is to listen to us, that's why we are here... not because it's fun for us, because as stated many times before - someone needs to do it.
Even if you managed to get 1.3 to a point that it's identical to 1.2, I'm not even sure anyone can get the bulk of the players to play 1.3. It's gone that ugly.

Quote from: Avatar on March 18, 2006, 06:41:47 AM
Like I said, the only thing that's needed is for the exact kind of reports you're giving.  If Ken hangs in there we don't even need to play with ODF's, he can change the engine specs to the point where it's very much like 1.2 as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering.

Those kind of reports I'm giving have been reported many times before, but always somehow got *lost* in all the *noise*.
And that "as long as the children can accept the loss of infinite hovering" comment is silly and only meant to prolong this off-topic nonsense - why do you still think that is why we're here for? Get it out of your system already, come on. I almost state in every feedback post I make that I'm not asking for infinite-hovering back.

it's sad when you think about it, alot of this animosity between GSH and the vet community stems back to the pandi board days and most of it was Asmo's doing, he's long gone now but he did a proper job of poisoning the well before he left, if he could see us now he'd be pissing himself with laughter.    :-(



I wish we could all just put our prejudices aside because in reality we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

"Gonna have to tape Dr Who"


I've actually already seen the entire 1st season of the "New" Who...I liked it.

Quote from: BZ FeebleEffort on March 18, 2006, 07:53:37 AM
"Gonna have to tape Dr Who"


I've actually already seen the entire 1st season of the "New" Who...I liked it.

I thought it sucked arse bigtime .

"Alpha" marks the first semi-functional release of a product.  "Beta" usually means the point where it's almost functional and ready for testing, although some of time I wonder who gets to decide that.  Neither one of them inidicates in any way that the product is even close to it's finished form.  Several of the betas I've been part of rapidly became nothing like what was started with.

You may have studied software development but I've lived it for decades, and a Beta is indeed a moving target.  You never know from one release to the next just what works, and what doesn't, or what's going to be completely different from the previous release.  Perhaps I should have focused on the word "Test" more, so I could be taken more literally.  :p

In either case, as you said and has been said to death around these boards BZ2 is a dead game.  I doubt very much whether Ken or Nathan care one bit how many people play 1.2 vs 1.3, or if there's any life left in the game.  Part of the reason there's so much attitude involved is that, for them, it's probably more of a personal wish to NOT leave work undone, to fulfill a desire to learn and experiment on their own, and to touch on parts of the program that they weren't originally part of than any real attempt to keep BZ alive.

Again, I don't see why it becomes so personal.  Even your "don't be stupid" comments take it beyond a civil discussion and make it personal, and the disrespect and attitude comes crashing in again.  It's gone that way every time the word "Vets" has appeared in a thread and I don't see that ending any time soon.

There's just something about anything involving 1.3 and the Strat side of the community that makes things devolve into flame wars.  It's been that way from the start and it'll probably never end.

And, since I respect RD too much to continue to hijack his thread, that's all I've got to say.  This thread is pretty much dead until Ken gets done with whatever he's doing in the continuing beta anyway.

-Av-

I agree this shouldn't continue. We've all been down this road many times before.

But with regards to GSH and Ken not wanting to leave work undone, I think that's a awful much personal leverage thinking like that. The results are the bulk of the players are left out to dry because of their personal reasons, how's that for not leaving work undone? :) But they don't read this, and they don't care. So why do we bother?

Anyway, the only reason I check these forums is to check if RD has uploaded a new config for the scouts. I'm hoping he will continue that work.

appel, Ken has made some changes to the "engine" that have made all the work RD has done useless, and as such he has decided to put things on hold.

PF, I wasn't talking about DF, ZA or Aeg leaving. There were a great many vets involved before I was allowed into beta and most of them were gone by time I got in. Just look through these names from the 1.3PB2 Read me and tell me how many names you recognize as vets.

From Read me:

*sinbad*, @4u, APCs r Evil, arcer, aougli, Avatar, Big_Kenny, Blarbo, blewyn, BS-er, Bull Dog, BZ Wardog , BZZERKER, Centerline, CmptrWz, Commando, Condor, Coxxon, DarkFox, Dirty Rooster, DutchBoy, FireFLY, Fishbone, FraKTal, Fried, General BlackDragon, General Manson, Grass69er, GreenHeart, Huscar, IceWendigo, Jetfire, Juvat, LastBoyScout, Lizard, LoClubberlick, MalevolencE, markshelby, Marzipan, Marzipan2u, Mattroxx, MAUS, Menacer, Montana, Mother's Helper, MowerMan, Namarrgon, Natty Bumppo, NoK0mm3nt, NukeDaddy, OldManGloom, Onyx, OvermindDL1, Pastell, psych0fred, Red Devil, RubiconAlpha, Ryoanji, sabrebattletank, Scout, (SFP)Shadower, Shane Ward, SilverB1rd, Slaor, Smoke_Jaguar, Smuggler, SFP Sonic, spAce, Spacecomber, Spawn, Speedy, SquareEyes, StrangeFLY, technoid, Tempest Storm, TimeVirus, Tyreal Mathias, zeeder, Zero Angel, ZOEBart, {VnB}Aegeis, ~RIP~Maverick-=F=-

That list is only a partial list because there were some names that got lost due to a board swap from the post Pandi boards that @4u had set-up to the one before this one. I believe you would see a great many more names you would recognize if they hadn't been lost.

The changes to the engine have afected the physics, but I'm not sure how much.  Might be good for RD to continue the tweaking, or I could play around with things if he would like to take a bf2 break :-P

As for those testers, how many of them have actually tried the patch and said something in the last month?  Most got on the patch, played it for a bit then went to other things, this is not includign those who were are on that list but were removed/left since 66a I think it was.

appel, I would really appreciate it if you would stop criticizing GSH.  I really think it's beneath you and it serves no purpose.

Two devs have worked on it part time after working full 10-12 hour days doing what a full team of programmers working full time would have taken 1-2 years to do.

To expect things to be just the way you want them when you get a release is very unrealistic.  Heck, I've posted a few dozen of just ODF tweaks and I'm nowhere near close.

Believe me guys, they are not doing this for personal reasons.  We all do this because BZ is unique and we love it.

And there's lot more to it than physics. The devs are working now on making the engine better by improving memory allocations.

Lol yes, but Microsloft is making that a tough job right now...   :evil:

-Av-

Microsloft LOL!!

They are very good at that...

Quote from: Avatar on March 18, 2006, 11:51:02 AM
Lol yes, but Microsloft is making that a tough job right now... :evil:

-Av-

Quote from: Spawn on March 18, 2006, 10:31:13 AM
As for those testers, how many of them have actually tried the patch and said something in the last month?  Most got on the patch, played it for a bit then went to other things, this is not includign those who were are on that list but were removed/left since 66a I think it was.

That's exactly my point Spawn. With the exception of a few of the ~RIP~ guys and a few others, Stratters were no longer being represented and even then they didn't post a whole lot about any actual testing. It always got put off until the weekend when some of us bot-killers with jobs could join in to help fill the games up. They either quietly sulked away or went kicking and screaming and most of it was due to no more nose down. The ~RIP~ er's have apparently now moved on to other games as I hardly see any of them around at all.

I will put what Av has been saying a bit more bluntly. The majority of Startters want this and that but don't want to do any of the work to get this and that. This is because most of the Stratters are still kids, spoiled by instant gratification of having mom and dad hand them everything. The real world will teach them differently when they get jobs.

I don't see it as that bad...

I see it more like asking an Indy driver to help with a transmission overhaul.  Nobody knows more about the car, the dynamics of driving it, the way it performs, than the driver does but very few drivers have the skills to both drive AND rebuild the tranny.  Those skills aren't mutually exclusive but few have time to fully develop both.  (In BZ2 terms TV comes to mind as both driver and mechanic...)

It's very frustrating for the driver to sit through the parts where the transmission is spread out all over the floor, while it's easy for the mechanic to grab a beer and watch the race afterward, happy in the knowledge that it was his work that put the car on the track.

It's very hard for dedicated Stratters to sit through the parts where everything they know feels wrong (physics), or the focus is on things they hate (too effective AI), where their skills and areas of expertise aren't relevant.  It's much easier for Modders to dig into the odfs and cfgs, then kick around a game thinking they're testing everything when in fact they're somewhat blind to the ebb and flow of a higher level match.

Still, it does take patience to muddle through the engine tuning part of the process, and maturity to not get all bent when the focus doesn't shift when they want it to. 

Modders go "can I have THIS?", and when the Devs say "NO" Modders go "Then howabout THIS?".  Each turned down request just adds more challenge to a modder's greed index.    :)

Stratters go "We need THIS or the game is broken." and when the Devs say "NO" the Stratters go away...  :(

-Av-

I have to chime in about this real quick...

Quote from: appel on March 18, 2006, 06:21:16 AM
But for BZ2 this doesn't apply since you don't have the vets and the newbies playing together.

Why do you think the lower-end people cannot seem to get better, because to get better they need to play with people better then them.
That is part of the fragmentation I was talking about.  In every other multi-player game I play, I always see some high-end people helping the low-end, showing them how to do things, because they want to turn them into a challenge.  The high-end's in this community seem to want to segregate themselves, which will just hurt them in the long run as they continue to shrink.

All games are like that.  Players quickly learn which servers are newb tolerant and which aren't, and gravitate towards the ones that suite them the best.  From Diablo to Doom to Tribes 2 you'll find the good and the bad.  For BZ2 it's just that there's such a small player base...  makes your choices much more limited.

Makes me wonder what the Community could do if it tried.  Maybe start up some servers that welcomed newbs and had Vets training them, or start ladders and webspace that ranked players and tracked their progress and availability.  Some sort of system for registering handles to eliminate smurfing...

Lots of things that 'could be'...   

-Av-

But in the high end of any community there are always scrims, where the new are made fun of, that isn't everywhere, but that is what happens.  In bz2, 90% of the time when there is a new player, some unknown to the vets who begs for a chance to play, they go in for five minutes, die over and over, and then call everyone cheaters and quit.  Whenever I play in 1.1 either I am kicked or the other team quits.  In 1.2 there are means for palyers to get better, asking for help or tips on forums can get you something, asking to join a clan or get training from them.  "Vets" is bz2 aren't always good, but they are known, they can hit pools or run away, but won't quit for no reason like new players do.  Just less in bz2 that other, more popular games, not many new players are coming in.  Also, in other games does the entire community of vets know each other?  Does everyone who palys regularlly know each other?  On a specific server maybe, but not in the whole game.  Bz2 has a much different community.  Not to mention in any other game there are always people who will just kill you and laugh at you because you suck, it can be hard to find out soemone to help you get better, and it's easier to just play with people who suck and be able to kill them.  Not to mention that having one bad player in the game is at least a quarter of the potential ability, so one bad player is not just an annotance to you, but a waste of recources and a benefit to the other team.

not gonna comment on everything but theres few things I do want to mention -


perhaps the straters that were on beta did quit, and it realy wasnt their time to be on the beta, very understandable as was mentioned before - it just wasnt the time to work on the things they know most about.
so yeah, some of them quit, some of them whinned - so now when you do need them you're gonna turn them down just because "they had their chance"? thats just BS
we come here offernig to help, and its not like we're gonna enjoy it - I much rather play a strat game then a test a new scout build, or a new balance issue, or w/e
and yet, we get the finger...

QuoteStratters go "We need THIS or the game is broken."

cant agree with this sentence. there are also modders who said "we need THIS or the game is broken" and left. you just picked the wrong people.

as for that beta list - I counted ~15 people I consider vets out of ~83
and TBH, I would've quit too if a project would have dragged over 2 years without me being able to do nearly anything to help
its frustrating and a waste of everyones time

QuoteWhy do you think the lower-end people cannot seem to get better, because to get better they need to play with people better then them.

there are new vets almost every 2 months or so

One thing people *really* need to understand is that when a beta patch is released is that there's going to be problems.  It's *not* going to be just the way you like it right out of the gate.  In fact, there's a number of known problems that we need everybody's help in tracking down.

Insulting the devs because the physics now aren't the way you like them or that it broke your mod or any number of things like really betrays a lack of understanding of the process.  It's not simple and it's not easy.  Some things are going to break in the process and some things are going to get better.

It's really easy to point fingers and find fault with someone who is working.  But try doing that job yourself and having people do it to you and you'll will quickly find your attitude changing.

Also, trust me, testing isn't for everyone.  Most people either don't know how to test or they just want to play.  It can be extremely tedious and repetitive at times. Sessions can last an hour or so, but most of the ones I do last about 1-5 minutes and many of them are back to back.  Heck, I've had many days where I've had 50 BZ loads a day.  And that's just me with a few ODF's.  Expand that to understanding and adjusting 500,000 lines of inter-related logic and the task becomes mind numbing.

Be thankful we have the devs working on this game for us.  I can't think of one other game where the original programmers are working on it in the little spare time they have to make it better.

The IVP Scan they did on me Wednesday found a "really" big" kidney stone in my left kidney, so I have to beg off any and all projects for the time being until they either cut it or blast it out.

Spawn, if you want to finish the physics tweaks, please feel welcome.

RD, Best of luck w/ the kidney Stone..those can be a aSOB, so get it treated and then get back into action...

as to the Physics issue..doesn't that all become moot until ken finishes his RE-tweaks?

My father had one about 5 years ago, he was pretty well incapacitated for a day or two after the surgery...

Yes, after Ken is finished working on them they'll probably need some adjustment and Spawn seems capable.

Wow red, jsut remember to get lots of valium and you should be fine :-D
Good luck with it though, hopefully you won't need to just pass it, that can hurt.

I'll try my best with it, when you want to take over again, if you want to, just say something

They'll shove a **** up your ****  and use SONIC WAVE to **** the little thing into ****...

:)

Doesn't hurt but it is, er, 'interesting' to have done...

-Av-

Bad luck here Red, get well soon aye

teehee, been cursed recently Red?

back to this anti-GSH thing

why can't everyone just SHUT UP!, unless your actually helping! GSH takes the bloody time, that he dosen't have to spend, and could spend having fun, so you can play Battlezone better! but nooooooo, instead of evereyone helping GSH and supporting him the entire board splits in half and turns into a damn warground! I'm like the only person on this forum who is not a 'vet' or a 'dev' and frankly both sides (more so the vets) are turning this entire thing into Civil War 2.

So shut up or help.  Don't wine, bitch, and complain like a three year old who won't get the new toy he wants, and no, I don't care if you've 'been a supporting member of the battlezone community for years', because at this rate there won't be a 1.3, There'll be a Nazi GSH, No 1.3 for you!

 Just returned from the urologist and saw the stone and they weren't kidding.  Its the size of big cashew and it's sitting right where everything drains from the kidney.  They say they're going to have to blast it out of there.

Ouch!  I'm sorry to hear that Red Devil.  Hopefully it can be removed in the least painful way possible.

Ouch indeed. You take care of yourself until you feel better.

Yup.  Your cursed.

While not exactly 'fun', the sonic blast method is fairly easy and has no lasting ill effects.  You can read a book while they're doing it if you want...

It's not exactly the most manly thing on earth to do, though...    :roll:

-Av-

Read a book?  Why not?

Read the bz2 manual. I still have it somewhere around here.  :roll:

Quote from: Red Devil on March 29, 2006, 04:27:21 PM
Read a book?  Why not?

:-D

:roll:

-Av-

The bas news is that I saw it on the X-ray and it's 17x10 mm sitting right at the kidney's main exit, partially blocking it.  I have to be put under with general anesthesia for 30-60 minutes while they blast this week, so the book reading is right out.  The good news is that I get to drink lots of beer.

Cheers!

Oooh!  Oooh!  You lucky sod...  I love the colors when they put me under, they sound and smell so sweet...  and the movies in your head, I like sixth grade the best...

Oh, but if you see anything with wings, regardless of color, leather or feather type, head the other way...

-Av-

opps.

Unfortunately, none of that good stuff happened.  It was just one second I was saying, "Okay, I'm feeling that lightheadedness now" and the next I was waking up two hours later with a sore throat a tube inserted up into in my kidney.

You missed the movie then...  too bad...

Well, you're typing at least.  That's a good sign!  Glad to hear everything came out all right...  :)

-Av-

Good to hear your feeling better, and have painkillers :-D

Thanks. I have a choice of Darvocet, Percocet, and Vicodin, just in case, but never take more than i need at the time.  *Never* want to run out and then have nothing for it.

Ahh nothing like a good bit of pain to let you know your alive, just try not to do anything worth remembering while on the pain killers,
I lost 2 weeks after my last general, no idea what happened at all.

Quote from: Red Devil on April 06, 2006, 05:23:28 PM
Thanks. I have a choice of Darvocet, Percocet, and Vicodin, just in case, but never take more than i need at the time.  *Never* want to run out and then have nothing for it.

Percocet makes me throw up.

They gave it to me when I had my wisdom teeth out.

Nothing like packing your mouth with cotton such that all you have room for is one little pill, the same pill that makes you violently throw up a half hour later...  sheeesh.

Darvocet is good, never had a problem with it, and never tried Vicodin.  Tylenol 3 with Codeine makes me tingly and sleepy.

The best of all is a fifth of vodka, but you might end up in another state and married (again) when you wake up...   :-D

-Av-

Had my wisdom teeth pulled a half year ago, I just got a couple injections in my muscle in my mouth (*youch* that hurt), but it actually made pain disappear, no ill side effects; quite a change from what they used when I was young, they'd have to give me three injections for it to even start working with whatever they were using then.  Apparently they changed to that new stuff last year so I had good timing with getting these pulled.

Took Tylenol 3 with Codeine after words to keep pain away, that stuff made me dizzy, not sleepy though, just really dizzy.

Lol...  my oral surgeon was 5'-0", 150lbs.  He looked me up and down (6'-2", at that time 230lbs) and said...

"Oh yeah, you're going out."

Being a big macho type I watched him hook up the IV and when told nobody makes it past 96 counting backwards I laughed and said "I will.".

"99"
"98"
wtf??
why am I walking?
I was just counting backwards...
what about my teeth? 
what's this stuff in my mouth?
lookit the pretty birds...

That's the only way to have any kind of surgery...   :)

-Av-

 I'm going to ask my dentist to start doing that for fillings...and cleanings...exams...

Im sure if you would pay for the gas he would.

I sooo wish I went to get the IV as you did, but I looked at the price...

The NO didn't affect me much when I last used it.  He's at about 8600 feet too, so I thought it would affect me more.